Does China Have a "Victim Mindset"?

Oh no, here comes another one.

Now I'm really bored and tired of this game of "blogger whack a mole". At least Cyberslacker Ming here should be feeling yippee for becoming the story himself. I guess people did bother to read your essay. ;-)

This has got to be a world record for shortest time between posting and first comment. Who is the cyberslacker now, Mr. Seacrh4T? .....:)

"In a bigger picture, how the West reacts to China hosting the Olympics also have an impact on how the Chinese think they can achieve a peaceful rise and gradually fit back into the international community. "
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exactly, China tried to play by the rule, but again and again, the West has sent the wrong signal.

Believe it or not, majority of the ppl I know were actually against the Olympic game. We believe the money could be better spent in other places. But after the recent events, especially after seeing how one-sided the western media reports were, pretty much all of them are now supporting the game.
When you push hard enough, ppl will push back, this is part of the human nature.

Haha, that's the best biting and biting back I’ve ever read here.
First, thank you, Simon. I have to confess my last post has a lot of words and it is really a tedious job to read through it.

I also read your essay “Why China’s is burning mad” at TIME website.

1). I feel really sorry for all those foreigners who live in China and now feel somehow threatened by those outbursts of patriotic/nationalistic emotions.
But I can assure you: you’re not alone. Foreigners are not alone. I myself have been personally abused and threatened several times by other online cementers.
Last time when scores of Tianya members used one public account to post here, I warned them not to do so. In my mind, post under others’ name is an offence not quite acceptable. I got very harsh response at Tianya. My wife then said I was crazy because I sacrificed so much time and energy on online debate jut to get screwed so hard.
Anyway, what I want to say is that Internet in China is the craziest place in this whole universe. Many cementers are young, angry, frustrated and ready to attack anyone and anything that are not in their taste. They also know barring politics they can say whatever they like and no one is going to sue them. I always tell my friends Internet in China has become a perfect place for some guys to vent their anger and frustration in their real life.
In one word, don’t take them too seriously. Most of guys even don’t remember what they said the night before.
Come back to real life, people are governed by law and order. Violence, both verbal or actual, carries a price tag. Don’t confuse what you get from Internet with what you can get from real life.
Another very interesting fact: those Tianya guys were from an entertainment forum. They usually didn’t give a damn to politics or any other serious topic.

2). As for those who really worry another cultural revolution is in the making, I ask them to calm down. The whole Chinese society has changed a lot. A new middle class, pragmatist leadership and rational public figures will assert themselves before anything really nasty is going happen. Do you guys actually note one of the best know TV host, Bai Yansong, said he opposed boycotting Carrefour from the very beginning? We call this the rational voice of society. They are vibrant, loud and do have an audience. I myself will not go to Carrefour these days, but I’m not planning to do anything extreme. And I also know boycotting is economically unviable and politically foolish. But the Chinese people do have to do something to tell the world they are really upset about what happened in Paris during the torch relay.
3). Why the Chinese people are burning mad? Simon, you mainly pointed your finger at the Chinese government, which is in your eyes stirring patriotism to gain some kind of legitimacy. No, this is a typical Western media storyline.
Asian people do have stronger nationalist/patriotic sentiments. When it comes to history, emotions are always high. Do you remember several South Korean protesters chopped their fingers off several years ago to protest against Japanese watering down its wartime history?
Then, let’s turn to the United States of America. If you watch Fox News Channel, you find extreme nationalist sentiments are always high. A butch of guys are always arguing or quarreling in their black or white world.
You asked why French people didn’t attack KFC. But you have to understand the French people do feel really proud of their culture and have long dismissed anything American as vulgar in history. They have long shown contempt for American pop pop culture, coco-cola, KFC and Hollywood movies. Compared to Japan economically and France culturally, China is much open to the Western world. Most Chinese, whether they like America or not, will always look to that country across the pacific whenever there is a problem to be fixed.
And I also observe that nationalist sentiments usually calm down when society becomes more open, tolerant and culturally diversified. Most young people in some West countries are actually apolitical. But China is still a developing country. You can’t expect something that it can’t realistically offer you at the moment.
4.) Don’t worry too much about China or Chinese, at least for now. Every Chinese is a pragmatist. No matter how impossible a situation they are in, they will always find a way out. The end of Cultural Revolution, opening up and reform, building the social security network and gradually political reform… Chinese leaders usually have a sense of history. They know their legacy will be defined by their efforts to develop China into a major world power and make its people more prosperous. They are constantly thinking about all those problems. Bearing in mind that China was Africa three decades ago, it is safe to say they have done s fairly good job so far.
5.) Finally it comes to my name, Munir Ming. I didn’t mean to have that alliteration. Munir is an Arabic name and it means what my surname means in Chinese. I get it from an Egyptian friend when I was in Egypt. Credit for Simon for reading the Muslim connotation.

Have a good weekend!

Search4T, I'm going to the botanical garnden tommorrow. Don't worry about me. I'm not a cyberslacker or a workholic. I do have a lot of other hobbies other than online debate. Forget to tell you I have a great Rockets vs Jazz game to watch on Sunday. Go rockets and T-Mac. They are already on the verge of first round elimination. But today they won, didn't they? ^_^

I personally hope China's hosting of the Olympics goes well. I am kind of on the fence about how it has become politicized - part of me wants the two (sports/politics) to be separate issues, but I cannot blame the people who are passionate about human rights and use opportunites presented to them to make their case.

What upsets me is the Chinese government tried to make an arms delivery to Zimbabwe during a political crisis in that country, and had the nerve to defend their position by saying the deal was made over a year ago, before the current political situation. So what? Any reasonable person would agree that in the current situation in Zimbabwe, it is innapropriate to deliver arms that could very well be used against innocent citizens by a government that is unwilling to give up control. On top of that, the Chinese government tries to make the U.S. the bad guy by saying we are trying to be the world's policeman and it is not wanted. There are several other countries publicly against the arms deal, why single out the U.S.?

I wish the best for the citizens of China, but I can't understand the rationale of the Government in this situation.

No one on France demonstrated outside KFC or whatever when the U.S. Congress did the Freedom Fries thing and commentators on TV in American were joking about "cheese eating surrender monkeys," which is pretty damn offensive, especially if you happen to like cheese
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Hmmm...Simon, could you take such a test for you: go to CNN, NBC or CBS, using the N-word and other words (you know what they are) to describe the black people on any live show. You try it.

Now could you take another test: write an essay on Time magazine, claiming that the holocaust of jews is a hoax, and that the jews are bascially goons and thugs since Judas betrayed Jesus.

You try it, then go back to the paragraph I cited here.

And, by the way, as a reminder, if there comes a horrible recation due to your tests, just use "I mean the government, not the people" as a scapegoat.

Good luck.

You colleague Bill Powell seemed to just "act" as one of those who"not only will laugh and point and catcall at your daughter, they'll claim to have impregnated her themselves if it gets people to take notice." See his thread:

http://time-blog.com/china_blog/2008/04/a_torch_relay_site_the_chinese.html

Let me remind you: if Bill really knew what the Chinese think about the N. Korea, he wouldn't write such a third class thread that really really sucks.

Maybe as the supervisor of him, the first thing you should do is asking him to read Tianya.

It seems to us you still don't get it.

You still naively portrait China's nationalism as the sole results of CCP's propaganda. You may find stronger patriotism sentiment among those old generations of Chinese, especially the pre-revolution generation.

You don't understand what Chinese feel and don't listen to their voices. And, you keep posting biased and sarcastic blogs on the website to insult the feelings of people in China.

You made comment of "little scrappy Singapore". Why don't you put this comment on your recent article? Are you afraid of letting people know your true face of hypocrisy and biases?

You show no mercy and sympathy toward those killed and burned Chinese, but pretend to be caring about the human rights in China.

That is why you are hated by 1.3 Billion Chinese. That is why you will be spitted on face by Chinese. But, you will not get fame in the textbook because you will be forgotten and deserted.

I dare to differ about the fear of cultural revolution. While it is case that in the 60s,70s idealistic/ideological fervor wreaked havoc throughout China, IMO today's cynicism permeated China needs more idealism, not less.

Another reason that you still don't get it.

Chinese cares XiZang more than the Olympics.

You want Chinese to give up the Olympics. Fine, go get it. We don't need this money-wasting and corruption-generating game.

You want XiZang out of China. No! Never! We will fight to death with you.

It is not just the victim mindset, it is a combination of a victim mindset and the God mindset, with a health dose of Face thrown in. Adding the freedom of press with Chinese characteristics, and great school systems in China, you have exhibit A. And, unlike the pre-WWII era, there is the Internet. You have an unprecedented efficiency in communication and organization within China, and from China to the rest of the world, (but not from the rest of the world TO China.) This is a great recipe.

@Simon Elegant: "This has got to be a world record for shortest time between posting and first comment. Who is the cyberslacker now, Mr. Seacrh4T? .....:)"

Guilty! But not for cyberslacking at work - not at 3am central time, or one would really need to get help. But guilty nevertheless, for perhaps not having a life. What can you do, when you have two sick kids that ruined your evening and kept you up all night, might as well waste some more quality time on your blog. ;-)

@Munir Ming: I was wondering what that Ming stands for. Too bad all he could do is pump his fists on the sideline. But She-Mac needed every bit of your encouragement. If last night's game was an indication. The light bulb does go on in him sometimes. I still don't like their chances though. Call me pessimist. BTW Yao's restaurant is over-rated.

Sorry folks for ruining your serious geo-political debates with these shallow sports talks. But since China and the west are not going to bomb each other back to the stone age any time soon, maybe we can all take a break every now and then?

There is no reason for China to be a 3rd world nation. Any victim mindset is merely a reflection of fact and history - which hopefully the Chinese will grow out of soon.

Victim Mindset is kind of a condescending way to describe the Chinese reactions.

Distrust might be a more fair way to describe.

Its kinda like my grand parents coming to Simon's house and took over his TV and living room. I continue to to bash Simon now telling him he abuses his kids. Simon keeps defending himself that he treats his kids better now. He then tells everybody he thinks my criticisms have ulterior motives because my ancestors once invaded his house.

I never come out and say that my grandparents were wrong. I continue to bash Simon and I tell Simon he needs to give up a part of his house.

Simon is so "victim minded."

I usually agree with what you write Simon, but don't know about this. I do not think the Chinese "victim mentality" is going to go away after the Olympics. The political education that has become so important in schools and media which you discussed in your article "Why China's Burning Mad" is, I think, the primary reason there is such a widespread victim mentality in China today. It is not some sort of natural result of the confluence of history and Chinese culture (people in Taiwan and Hong Kong do not think this way). The Olympics are going to make Chinese people feel more confident, especially if the games go smoothly, but they are not going to get people to more seriously engage in what Munir called "intellectual reconciliation." It sounds a lot like the old theory that the more economic prosperity China has, the more it will embrace reform and democracy. It's a lot of unwarranted optimism because in both cases, the end you're looking for doesn't have much to do with the means of achieving it.

I do agree completely that trying to shame or humiliate China at this point is counter-productive and isn't going to help anyone trying to achieve political goals vis-a-vis Tibet or whatever. The trouble is, most protesters see the Olympics as a "window of opportunity" to influence China, because there really isn't any way to politically influence China. I know, I know, "quiet diplomacy," but diplomats have more complicated political agendas, and besides, when negotiating in China, especially on issues like Tibet, it is difficult to achieve any kind of concessions unless the Chinese side starts out negotiating from a position of disadvantage. They are not, and so quiet diplomacy has effectively achieved no progress in Tibet, as the situation has on balance worsened over time.

I agree with what Mr Elegant said. And in fact some commenters here are doing it as well. Days ago someone (I forget his name) posted that all the Chinese cares abt is $ becuz they demanded CNN to pay a big sum of $ for saying "goons and thugs". The reality is 14 lawyers in Beijing tried (until now unsuccessfully) to sue them and demanded them to pay a sum of $. Guess how much? ￥100. What a huge difference.

By the way, I think you guys are so cool for keeping a blog and actually reading the comments yourselves. I'm a Chinese studies nerd and you guys are like celebrities to me. The fact that you update frequently and respond to readers makes this a great read and an important source of ongoing debate and dialog (even if a lot of it is flaming). Please don't stop!

Apart from peacefully coexist, no other choice

What happened these days tell us great! Why was the Olympic torch leg disturbed violently in the western countries again and again? Why did west media misrepresent the Lasa events deliberately? Why did west governments and their people favor and support the splittists lead by DALAI LAMA? Why so many west media like to smear and demonize CHINA?

Yes, we should admit that CHINA has many shortcomings and unfairness in its economic and political life. But, on the other hand, we should also admit that CHINA is making big progress in many fields. International societies should be glad with such progress. West countries should accept CHINA as an equal member in the world family.

In the era of globalization, CHINA’s development means creating more opportunities and benefits for other countries. CHINA’s decline means creating more troubles and risks for the whole world. The reason is simple: CHINA is the biggest country with over 1.3 billion of people, which accounts for one sixth of the whole population of the world. The influence of CHINA on the world, no matter positive or negative, can never be ignored and belittled.

Confronted with such a giant, what approach and attitude should the west countries take?
The only choice is, if I say, we coexist and develop peacefully. That is a win-win result. So we expect more frank and honest dialogues.
Yang jihua from CHINA, xqyy009@yahoo.com.cn

China does have a victim mindet, but that is just part of the question and answer.

The fact is that the Chinese have victimised millions of people, and the question should be addressing this fact. Why!!!!

This is my first visit to this site. In fact it's the first blog I have ever participated in. The mention of a "victim mentality" is a strong inference but there is some truth there. I lived in China for 20 years, speak fluent Mandarin, and can understand most dialects when spoken, language is one very important skill in being able to understand the Chinese mind-set. Another thing that is very important to remember is that we are talking about a country and it's people. The recent history of Mainland China is so different from and far removed from that of Hong Kong and Taiwan that it may be difficult for people from those parts of China to relate. Not to mention the vast differences between the mind-sets of the North and the South. Most of the time that I spent in China was spent in the North,　“现代中国思想之摇篮”; the birthplace of the modern Chinese mind-set.

The mention of a "victim" mind-set is interesting. However when you have a victim you must have a victimizer. Who pray tell might this victimizer be? The Communist Party? The International community? I think not. The Communist Party is still the savior of the Chinese people and the international community is still the bringer of "flies".

Prior to the opening up to the West, the Chinese people believed that China was the richest nation in the world. When the doors opened and the foreigners came rolling in(me included) the realization that they were not was more than they were able to comprehend.

I don't believe that the Chinese have a victim mind-set but I do believe that they have a desire to get what they feel they deserve or better yet what in their own minds is due to them. Mind you, I am only speaking for the people whom you see regularly in society, people who are chasing after material packaging and things usually out of their reach. But know there is still a vast section of the population whom you never see; living simple and honest lives not caring for what goes on outside as it will not effect them. They have a "roll-with-the-punches" attitude, which is a required skill for people who really live in China.

On the previous side, the group of people who have a perpetual chip on their shoulder, which in Chinese is referred to as '心理不平衡‘　literally translated as - their hearts are out of balance. This is not a victim mind-set but rather a mind-set of insecurity and the inability to grasp one's own identity.

Today, the Chinese people do not know who they are as a people, much less as individuals. Chinese society is much different from most developed countries in that the individual is on the lowest rung of the ladder (least important), the society and country are at the top. Socially this is a very complexed relationship which runs a complexed gamut nearly opposite from that of most Western societies.

Society dictates the way the people live, society places expectations on individuals and those individuals who are insecure in who they are as a people are are the ones who will fall into the 'hearts out of balance' group. They don't know who they are and they refuse to let others look down on them.

During the Cultural Revolution, China cut itself off from it's own culture. Chinese thinkers and philosophers were criticized, they lost great face which caused the Chinese people, as a group, to lose all respect and intent for these people. Only within the past ten years has that even begun to change. However, now they have begun to embrace their history and culture in a way that is not natural, it is no longer a part of their soul. They are groping to find themselves, first as a people and next as an individual, in front of the global village.

The Olympics is a very important event for China. I was in Beijing during the Asian Olympics and this will be an even larger event for the face of the society of the Chinese people and the image that the Mainland wishes to project to the outside.

Unfortunately, China, as a country is trying honestly to impress the rest of the world and they are using the only way they know how; they are doing what they would expect others would do. Sadly though, they don't understand the rest of the world any more than the rest of the world understands them.

This is my first visit to this site. In fact it's the first blog I have ever participated in. The mention of a "victim mentality" is a strong inference but there is some truth there. I lived in China for 20 years, speak fluent Mandarin, and can understand most dialects when spoken, language is one very important skill in being able to understand the Chinese mind-set. Another thing that is very important to remember is that we are talking about a country and it's people. The recent history of Mainland China is so different from and far removed from that of Hong Kong and Taiwan that it may be difficult for people from those parts of China to relate. Not to mention the vast differences between the mind-sets of the North and the South. Most of the time that I spent in China was spent in the North,　“现代中国思想之摇篮”; the birthplace of the modern Chinese mind-set.

The mention of a "victim" mind-set is interesting. However when you have a victim you must have a victimizer. Who pray tell might this victimizer be? The Communist Party? The International community? I think not. The Communist Party is still the savior of the Chinese people and the international community is still the bringer of "flies".

Prior to the opening up to the West, the Chinese people believed that China was the richest nation in the world. When the doors opened and the foreigners came rolling in(me included) the realization that they were not was more than they were able to comprehend.

I don't believe that the Chinese have a victim mind-set but I do believe that they have a desire to get what they feel they deserve or better yet what in their own minds is due to them. Mind you, I am only speaking for the people whom you see regularly in society, people who are chasing after material packaging and things usually out of their reach. But know there is still a vast section of the population whom you never see; living simple and honest lives not caring for what goes on outside as it will not effect them. They have a "roll-with-the-punches" attitude, which is a required skill for people who really live in China.

On the previous side, the group of people who have a perpetual chip on their shoulder, which in Chinese is referred to as '心理不平衡‘　literally translated as - their hearts are out of balance. This is not a victim mind-set but rather a mind-set of insecurity and the inability to grasp one's own identity.

Today, the Chinese people do not know who they are as a people, much less as individuals. Chinese society is much different from most developed countries in that the individual is on the lowest rung of the ladder (least important), the society and country are at the top. Socially this is a very complex relationship which runs a complicated gamut nearly opposite from that of most Western societies.

Society dictates the way the people live, society places expectations on individuals and those individuals who are insecure in who they are as a people are the ones who will fall into the 'hearts out of balance' group. They don't know who they are and they refuse to let others look down on them.

During the Cultural Revolution, China cut itself off from it's own culture. Chinese thinkers and philosophers were criticized, they lost great face which caused the Chinese people, as a group, to lose all respect and intent for these people. Only within the past ten years has that even begun to change. However, now they have begun to embrace their history and culture in a way that is not natural, it is no longer a part of their soul. They are groping to find themselves, first as a people and next as an individual, in front of the global village.

The Olympics is a very important event for China. I was in Beijing during the Asian Olympics and this will be an even larger event for the face of the society of the Chinese people and the image that the Mainland wishes to project to the outside.

Unfortunately, China, as a country is trying honestly to impress the rest of the world and they are using the only way they know how; they are doing what they would expect others would do. Sadly though, they don't understand the rest of the world any more than the rest of the world understands them.

The fact is that China was the victim of the Western colonist invasion for 200 years from 1839 (the First Opium War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars). That's why those so call westren intellectual fear about the growing up of China so much. They are diligent in distort China and brainwash the western people against China.

I would ask the western people not to be afraid of the growing up of China as the Chinese people have the wisdom of 'return good for evil'.

from this matter ,we absolutely knowed the ugly face of western media ,also ,they have lost the media market of china ,nobody will belive what you say any more .no matter what we have done to promote our unfair and shortage ,they would not change their attitude are hostitle to china , i was so stupid and childish once a time ,but now ,i finally see that if we want to be a actually powerful and rich contry ,there is no one can help us ,depending ourselft is the only effective measure.

we have make a huge progress in human rights and unfairs ,plase stay away from us ,none of your business .do you really care for us ,the answer is no ,the only thing you care about is whether china will challenge your super position in the world .

it’s like on your daughter’s graduation ceremony, one of your friends tries to point out the fact that she is actually three months pregnant and doesn’t know who is the baby’s father.
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No, it is rather pointing out that she is maltreating one of her children. Shall we stay silent and believe she will start behaving better?

the Games and what they symbolize for China makes this the worst possible time to try and exert pressure by embarrassing Beijing ahead of the Games.
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Just when I become convinced Simon is hopeless he says something smarter than he realizes.

Whether or not we agree on the reasons why, we do agree that this is the worst possible time to exert pressure by embarrassing Beijing. In fact, it's "always" a bad time to exert pressure by embarrassing Beijing.

Let them take pride in their accomplishments! Later, encourage constructive negotiation to remedy remaining problems between the east and west, and encourage both sides to learn how to do things they aren't good at yet (like FDA-style over site of exported goods quality or whatever in the east, and teaching an understanding of a less arrogant "greater good of the people" mentality to westerners).

my blog: http://teribidwell.blogspot.com

What "victim mindset"?
This is yet another unfortunate reflection of the West's arrogance and recalcitrance, shamelessly propagated and perpetuated time after time.
Absolutely flabbergasting!!

I am a naturalized American citizen with a Chinese wife who now has a green card. I love the US and consider myself an American first. I can tell you from personal experience that I appreciate all that is great about this country more than a lot of native born citizens who take so much for granted.

The recent events around the Olympic torch relay and the so called "developed" nations' reactive, arrogant rhetoric, confirms in my mind that it is the minority of people who bother to read the history and appreciate the politics of China in an evolving global context.

Many of those protesting China's approach to Tibet don't even know where Tibet is let alone the nuances of it's history and it's centuries old relationship with China. I am certain that most do not realize the pathetic state of Tibet under The Dalai Lama's rule in the first half of the twentieth century. Yet there is this strident whine to bring back theocratic rule to Tibet while the same people would not hesitate to condemn the theocratic government of Iran.

China became a unified republic in 1949. It is a young nation in that context. It decided to "open up" just in the 1970's. And please, hold the obvious remarks about all that's "evil" about communism for the time being as we Americans have a pretty solid record of evil of our own.

The US officially "freed" some of its own citizens from literal slavery just over 150 years ago yet widespread abuse of blacks has continued on a large scale into the 1960s. We have had our own very painful "cultural revolution." Blacks fought in many of America's wars, defending the American dream, while life for them back home was a nightmare. Chinese were abused and exploited for decades, Japanese were placed in interment camps, Irishs, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans have all been the victims of good old American racial prejudice and bigotry.

The US has been responsible for genocide on a spectacular scale (Hiroshima & Nagasaki, Viet Nam, Iraq) and has a very soiled human rights record of its own, and yet we sanctimoniously huff and puff our criticism as if we were the enlightened paragon of human virtues.

Puhleeeez. The least we could do as an enlightened society is to drop the arrogance and look at the facts in context. Seek a balanced assessment by taking into consideration both sides of the story.

A couple of analogies:

If the Cajuns of Louisiana wanted to secede from the union and there were violent riots, do you think the police and national guard would not respond with force? Do you think it would be appropriate for other nations to condemn us for actions that we believed were within our right?

We Americans love to make heroes out of those who are persecuted by the Chinese government for their disagreeable political views. We publicly scold the Chinese government for their oppressive ways. But back home, we have tolerated our government's totally inappropriate treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo. The CIA burns the evidence. The detainees languish in prisons without access to legal representation for years. So, how can we spout so much self righteous indignation about human rights?

So, the point of my harangue: balance and context. The US is not the world police. We should try to collaborate with China and encourage them to embrace the virtues of a free society through dialog. The Bush administration is too busy talking to its imaginary friends in the sky to have a dialog with countries like Iran and North Korea. The media just adds gasoline to this Neanderthal way of politics. We are certainly ready for regime change. Let's hope that it encourages a more open minded balanced reporting by our media, including you, Mr. Elegant.

Hungarian Kid