The Torch's Hong Kong Run

So protesters can't be patriots? Charming.

'So protesters can't be patriots? Charming.'

It is quite interesting to find that: when a westerner speak/protest/shout some opinions, the western people say those only represnt their individual thoughts. When some Chinese do the samething, it seems the western people turn to think they represnt all Chinese. This logic is insane. There are also right-wing, left-wing, liberal, nationalism, and the silent majority. Some people call the protesters traitor, that only means those people think the protesters are traitors, they don't represent all Chinese, otherwise those protesters won't be alive.

The pro-China protestors are being organised by the Public Security Bureau, who heavily fund overseas student groups.

These demonstrations were not spontanious, but rather orchestrated. Now they have taken a life of their own.

I hope the pro-China protestors are peaceful, accommodating to minorities and dont hold harsh feeling towards minorities.

A-Singh

'The pro-China protestors are being organised by the Public Security Bureau, who heavily fund overseas student groups.'

This is not true. You spread rumors again.

Orsino

Not rumours my friend.

It is well documented that the Overseas Chinese Student Groups are heavily funded by the local Chinese Consulates, who in turn get their instructions from the Public Security Bureau in Beijing.

A-Singh
theres no evidence that it is organised. Are u going to say that all the Chinese spectators present during the Games are government funded and organised? These are allegations without proof.

Though there is substantial number of "taogoan"(local communist)in Hong Kong, the majority of HongKongers reside in Hong Kong exactly because they don't want to live under the Chinese Communist system.

They can be pro-China but don't have to be pro-Chinese government, even though Beijing likes to and continues to work on changing that.

A-Singh

You put yourself into laughing stock again.
My protest against biased western media with my friends last month in London was funded myself and organized by a group of my friend.
According to your theory the pro Tibet protest should be organized by western secret agent.
Just nonsense…
hehe make me laugh...

a-singh

i know alot oversea student here in the state. i never heard anything about they are getting instructions from Beijing. so stop lying, and spread rumors about this.

Posted by oaiqnain | May 6, 2008 8:41 AM

Not all Chinese supporters were state funded. But a large proportion are, esp the student groups. For example in London and Manchestor, the Chinese embassy arranged for transport, flags and T-Shirts for the Chinese. It would have been impossible for a bunch of students to get this merchandise so quickly.

Also Chinese intellgence officials were well aware of pro-Tibet demonstrations, and they wanted some pro-China people as a public relations stunt.

The evidence is overwhelming - both circumstantial and actual.

A Singh,

You do sound like an intelligent agent as you know so many secrets to make so many accusations.

In term of Chinese state intelligence officials’ efficiency it is surely less efficient than UK based Free Tibet organization who claimed has more than 20 thousand members or something like Tibet Society so many of them such so called human rights lobby group.

Funny enough it is those politicians lie and create crisis and make up WMD to go to war to save human rights.

Asingh, if you are an Indian as you claimed. Please appeal your government to relocate the Tibet in exile to Arunachal Pradesh, a historic part of Tibet. So they will at least not to be in exile.

A Singh,

Carry on your fantasy story. I know lots of western audience will love it.

Posted by A-Singh | May 6, 2008 10:52 AM

"For example in London and Manchestor, the Chinese embassy arranged for transport, flags and T-Shirts for the Chinese. It would have been impossible for a bunch of students to get this merchandise so quickly.

Also Chinese intellgence officials were well aware of pro-Tibet demonstrations, and they wanted some pro-China people as a public relations stunt."

so what? that stands as a proof that the students are funded by the state. I'm astonished by your logic.
maybe in your point of view, the embassy should cut their connections with the students and stay away from them.
the students and the embassy stand on the same side, the embassy are willing to give them a hand.

Where is the Olympic flag ?

Is this an Olympic Torch run or China is Great torch run ?

And it is not about politics ? It is all about sport ?

Action is clearer than words.

John
it is somehow pro Tibet protesters fauly...

There is nothing wrong that the students were supported by their government.

On the other hand, Reporters sans frontieres and Tibetan thugs receiving financial support from CIA/U.S. Congress and some European governments is deplorable.

The Chinese ministry of public security, which is responsible for internal intelligence and security and oversees the administration of Tibet, Xinjiang and Inner Mongolia, is reported to have issued instructions to the Chinese embassies in countries having a large number of Tibetan refugees to mobilise the local Han residents to counter the anti-Beijing protests.

They have been advised to counter them through the Internet as well as on the ground. These instructions came on the eve of the planned observance of March 31, 2008, as a "Day of Action" by the Tibetan and Human Rights groups.

On this day, the Tibetan Youth Congress (TYC) handed over to the Chinese embassies in important countries a petition calling for Tibetan independence, which has been signed by over three million people--Tibetans as well as foreigners--all over the world.

Despite the Chinese clamp-down on the use of the Internet and mobile telephones in Tibet, Sichuan, Qinghai and Gansu, the Tibeteans and Uigurs continue to exchange communications with each other and keep the world informed of what has been going on inside Tibet.

Thanks to the Internet and the mobile telephones and the ingenuity of the Tibetan youth, the Chinese have failed to impose a total iron curtain around the Tibetan-inhabited areas, though a partial iron curtain, which is 75 per cent effective, functions. Even young Tibetan monks in Tibet and other provinces have become adept in the use of the Internet.

The Han diaspora abroad has been advised to copy-cat the Tibetan use of the Internet in order to widely disseminate the Chinese version of the developments in Tibet. There has been a mushrooming of Han-run blogs and chat rooms in the last one week to counter the Western version of the developments. A visit to some of these sites indicates that they have been hitting hard at His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama and his so-called ''clique'' (not sure what the heck that means!!) and at Western media and governments.

The Chinese authorities have been avoiding taking cognisance of the TYC and giving it a locus standi in the Tibetan issue. Instead, they continue to blame what they call the Dalai clique, which includes His Holiness himself.

While continuing to make arrests of the suspected participants in the uprising and those, who could pose a threat during the passage of the Olympic flame through Tibet, they have at the same time mounted a campaign to re-assure the Western governments and investors that the situation in Tibet is not as bad as projected by the Western media and has returned to normal.

Their exercise to take teams of foreign journalists and diplomats to Lhasa to see the situation for themselves proved an embarrassment. When the journalists were visiting a monastery in Lhasa, a group of monks shouted anti-Chinese and pro-Dalai Lama slogans. The diplomats have expressed their dissatisfaction over the way the Chinese sought to exercise strict control over their movements in Lhasa and did not allow them to freely interact with the local population.

The Chinese have been surprised that despite the significant prosperity of the Tibetans as a result of the undoubted economic progress, there is a high level of discontent against the government and support for the Dalai Lama. They attribute this to the failure of the local officials to realise the importance of "patriotic education" of the Tibetan youth. The importance of "patriotic re-education" was the running theme of the remarks made by Mr Meng Jianzhu , the minister for public security, during his interactions with local officials when he visited Lhasa on March 23 and 24, 2008.

His visit has been followed by the beginning of what appears to be a purge of local officials, who are seen as responsible for failing to anticipate the disturbances and prevent them.

The Tibet Daily announced on March 30, 2008, that Mr Danzeng Langjie, Director of Tibet's Ethnic Minority and Religious Affairs Commission, has been "removed" from his post and replaced by Mr Luosang Jiumei, who was the Vice-Secretary of the Communist Party committee of Lhasa since 2004. Both are ethnic Tibetans.

The Chinese Foreign Office is also reported to be unhappy with the Chinese embassy in New Delhi for failing to closely monitor the activities of the Dalai Lama's set-up and the TYC and forewarn the government in Beijing of their plans to create incidents before the passage of the Olympic flame through Tibet. The purge may eventually affect the staff of the embassy too.

A Singh

You and Mr B Raman make me laugh again…
Carry on been brainwashed by your own fantasy brain storm. It is no surprise why the pro Tibet get backfired. A lot of people can identify themselves Truth and Lies.

And you yet to answer my question if your are one of those deeply sympathy for Free Tibet Indians, Please appeal your government to return the Arunachal Pradesh to the Dalia Lama, not to use him as a tool…

My brother, sister-in-law, all my college classmates in the silicon valley area went to counter protest the protesters in San Francisco. I also donated for the New York Pro Beijing Olympics rally. We are all paid career CCP agents. Oh wait, I'm sorry. We are all paid career CCP agents and/or Han Chauvinists. One of my college classmates, a Hui minority, also caught the Han Chauvinisim bug and went to cheer for the Olympic torch. Oh wait, I'm sorry, he's just a paid career CCP agent.

As I have said before, a large number of Chinese protestors did not receive state aid. However these were a small percentage of the Chinese protestors, but numerically large due to the number of Hans. However more subtle forms of messaging was provided that would irk you to go to the streets - such as the vilification of His Holiness, China being humilaited, China under threat etc etc.

However the protesters (esp Chinese overseas students) were directed and aided by the Chinese Consulates - most of them.

What is even more interesting is that when the Chinese govt said, 'Enough protests guys' - it has suddenly all died down.

The link to the state security forces to incite Han Nationalism cannot be ruled out. It played a significant part for most, but maybe minimalist for others - but it did exist.

''One of my college classmates, a Hui minority, also caught the Han Chauvinisim bug''.

Clearly there are the odd minorities among Huis, Manchus, Uigurs and Tibeteans, who prefer the status quo as they are beneficiaries of the state patronage and system - the same system that discriminates against the majorities of those ethnicities.

You have to understand if you have read your Chinese History, that Han Nationalism (including elements of Chauvinisim) have taken the primary discource of Chinese Nationalism in the last 50-60 years.

The system overwhemingly favours the Han majority - their customs, language, diet, culture and the likes are professed as the 'Chinese Way'. For example, Tibeteans cannot get jobs as tour guides in Lhasa unless they are pro-efficient in Chinese, and same for civil servants, janators, or any state job.

Things like Autonomy given to Tibet, monastries being funded by the state, one child policies not being applied to minorities are just lip service. The implementation directives are quite the opposite where Tibet is ruled from Beijing, minorities are forced to have one kid, and funding for monastries comes from overseas remittances, and local economic activities of the monks & families. Monastries are the centre of Tibetean culture and the monks are deeply respected in this peaceful and loving society.

His Holiness has never asked for Arunachal Pradesh to be part of China or Tibet. It is China who says Arunachal Pradesh belongs to them, because oddly enough Arunachal Pradesh is part of Tibet. A laughable claim since Arunachal Pradesh's culture, langauge, food, ethnicity is no where close to China.

Moreover the Arunachal Pradesh people dont want to be part of Communist China, and prefer democractic India.

China can keep crying about it, but they aint getting an inch of Arunachal Pradesh, Sikkhim and Ladakh. Tough!!

Chinese imperialism stops at the Indian border!!!

Again it is no surprise, shameless Indian imperialists claim Ladakh as its territory along as Sikkhim and Arunachal Pradesh, although the culture, language, food and ethnicity is no where close to India.

Yes, the 14th Dalai Lama didn’t asked for Arunachal Pradesh to be part of Tibet, although the 6th Dalai Lama was born in Arunachal Pradesh. It is no surprise as he is regarded as a tool against China by Indian imperialists.

oaiqnain

I thought you were a sweet girl. But hate to have consumed you. Too many negative energies not good.

Can you just explain me in your own words, what you think of His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama, Jetsun Jamphel Ngawang Lobsang Yeshe Tenzin Gyatso?

He is adored by the vast majority of mankind (Most of India which is 1bn right away, West, Japan, Burma, South Korea, South America and Africa), but somehow the Chinese dont like him.

I guess its like the Whites not liking Nelson Mendela, Martin Luther King and Gandhi, because their non-violent means threatned the power base of the ruling class - Whites in US, SA, India, and in this case Hans in Tibet.

I have a dream that Hans and Tibeteans can live as equals, without Tibeteans being opressed by Chinese batons, tanks and guns. The cruelty unleashed by the PLA in Tibet just makes my feel really bad each time I think about it.

Innocent monks and Tibeteans being rounded up, sent to labour camps, tortured, forced to give up their culture. Gosh!! To disturbing. Horrible...

@ bluescreen2000, oaiqnain, Zhihua, et al,

Guys, please, no more responses to this "A-Singh" or whatever. He may or may not be an Indian.

As far as I am concerned, he is the same person as "John Smith" or whatever. Bottom line is he is anti-China.

China and India's relations are important - don't fuel misunderstanding between the peoples - if you pause to think about it - he has succeeded in getting you to start down a silly path.

Posted by bluescreen2000 | May 6, 2008 4:37 PM

India is a democracy - rule by the people for the people. A true democractic society cannot be an imperialist in the areas it governs directly and considers part of its territory - it is illogical.

The people of Arunachal Pradesh, Sikkhim and Ladakh choose to be within the union of India as they get to govern themselves democratically, state promotes local culture, food and language (unlike the treatment by Communist China in Tibet as mentioned in an earlier post).

I know you are trying to funny, but I get the last laugh as you put forward an illogical parallel.

China can never have the moral highground when it comes to Imperialism in Tibet, Manchuria, Taiwan, Inner Mongolia and Xinjiang.

Posted by huaren | May 6, 2008 4:47 PM

Sir, you have a clear lack of inability to defend yourself when an opposing view is put forward.

Rather you dig you head in the sand calling me racist names, or passing me off an Anti-China guy, or John Smith (though I think John Smith is really cool).

No country is above criticism including India. You need to live with that in the free world. Exercise your right to protest, blog and say what you like, a right denied to many Chinese people. If you want to listen to music to your ears, please go to pro-CCP blog.

Chinese people are lovely, and clearly they dont need people like you who want to supress free speech, democracy and re-conciliation among communities.

Please dont bring your form of Communist Chinese censorship to this blog, as we live in the FREE WORLD.

Posted by banshan | May 6, 2008 12:46 PM

''There is nothing wrong that the students were supported by their government.''

Bashan is a brave man, and has admitted it. I have nothing more to add, and the case is closed.

Lets discuss the post on HK by Ling.

South Korea said Thursday that it will toughen entry visa rules for Chinese students in the wake of their violent protests during a recent Olympic torch relay in Seoul.

The tough stance comes as public anger shows little signs of subsiding over violence committed by Chinese demonstrators on South Korean activists protesting Beijing's crackdown on Tibetan separatists, and its treatment of North Korean refugees.

The Chinese Embassy has been accused by the media of encouraging the students to gather for the ``protection'' of the Olympic torch.

At the same time, an ad-hoc committee set up by Christian groups for human rights and other civic groups for North Korean defectors has started fact-finding work about the Chinese violence.

The clashes on Sunday erupted as a small group of protesters demonstrated against China's forced repatriation of North Korean refugees and its crackdown on Tibetans. About 10.000 Chinese supporters, mostly college students, reacted to the protest violently _ they threw water bottles, stones, pieces of wood and drink cans.

After coming under public criticism, the government Tuesday announced that it will deport any Chinese nationals found guilty of attacking local protesters during the Olympic torch relay. Police are trying to trace Chinese students after analyzing video clips and photographs of the violence during the relay.

Reality of life for ordinary Chinese people - good people who are suffering under the Communist Party.

Poverty, deprivation, malnutrition, people living in huts with no water/food, no schooling - suffered by millions of innocent Chinese.

The hope the good Chinese people see this, because this is not what the Chinese govt want the world to see. It is a catalyst for change. People who have tried to complain about this are jailed or executed.

See the truth and hear it from the horses's mouth - a million miles away from glitz& glamour of the big cities.

I pray for ordinary Chinese person, and may things get better for them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUbrAM8JtHU

The above documents and shows live land grabs - a medevil battle ground that shows a live battle between CCP hired land grabbers and local villagers. The hired thugs used live ammo on villagers to evict them so that a CCP member could develop the land.

It is only 1 clip, but land grabs are common practice in China.

Corruption, theft, brutality against the Chinese people.

Anyone who supports the Chinese govt ought to think twice once they see this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUbrAM8JtHU

(also posted above)

If you still dont support democracy and human rights, then shame on you.

I thoughts and love go out for these Chinese citizens. Shocking.

Never again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-tDsbFTcsY&NR=1

Bring these criminals to justice.

http://chinaview.wordpress.com/category/social/employment/slave-labour/

We can bring about a Tiananmen II, but this throw this evil regime out.

I hope all the Chinese bloggers will support this cause after seeing what the govt has done to its people - the dark side of China. Emperor Palpatine (aka the govt) does not want you to view those clips.

Whats takes precedence:

Human rights, love, compassion (including growth and Chinese unity under democracy)

or

Chinese Nationalism

(Only 1 can take precedence as the two concepts are diagonally opposite)

I think the responses on the Chinese bloggers after this post will give the answer, and will be a reflection of the soul.

The passing of the Olympic torches in Hong Kong marked the success of China's success in foreign and domestic policy especially those dealing with minority groups. Based on the success and failure of the American experience, China should use that precedent to treat its minority. Everyone knows that the U. S. minority policy is a total failure. In general, the White Americans are treating its Black minority very well. Starting with equal right in transportation and bus riding. They were given affirmartive actions for employment and education and other previlages. They were given fair share of social security benefits. Blacks are getting much more than their fair share in the media, television, newspaper, advertisements, etc... They are getting fair housing much more so than other ethnic groups such as Latino, Asian and especially more than the American Indian who were originally living in this land. Everyone can clear observe teh American results -- the Black minority in the U. S. are exploiting their previleges. Black bus drivers harassing and unfairly treating non-Black riders. They using crimes and harassments to force other race out of their neighborhood and moving to new development in the wilderness destroying our environment. Crimes have force people to move to places so far from their work places that long distance driving have waste valuable gasoline. Affirmative in education, taking away other ethnic groups rights for a fair eduaction lower the national literacy and eduaction standard compare to other countries. Affirmative action in employment lower the quality of American workers to the points of outsourcing even very simple jobs to other countries. All those who opposed China action are simply insulting Chinese intelligence, thinking China will be so stupid as to listen to what they say. Just give me one reason why China should not suppress the illegal riots and terrorism of its Tibetan minority groups?
In addition the validity of the Fourteenth (14th) Dalai Lama in serious question. According to the principles of Buddhism, once a recycle or reincarnation process has passed the unlucky number "13" which represents expired/death then recycle/reincarnation, such reincarnation processes will end. This means that the Dalai Lama is invalid, has no supernatural, and can no longer represents his predecessors. The Tibetan people had rebelled against Buddha and operating against Buddhism by treating this current Fourteenth "Dalai Lama" as their leader.

A-Singh,

Your quixotic cry to split China into 8 parts to achieve Taiwan independence is simply an exercise in futility.

If you were a brave man, take up your arms and fight the unrepentant CCP government. But then the Taiwanese are 1. 怕死 2. 愛錢。 Continue with your daydream 有夢真美 希望相隨。 Hahaha.

We must seek truth from facts, as Deng Xiaoping said, about Tibet. Of course, not openly, otherwise we might get sacked or imprisoned. A popular editor in south China got fired for saying the same thing!

A-Singh

1) Sikkimese DID NOT chose to join India. Sikkim was an independent kingdom during British India and remain so when India became independent. The mistake the Sikkimese government made was to sign a treay with India granting citizen of both countries to travel freely to each other and other various right. What happened was that non-native sikkimese of Indian origin voted for Sikkim to join India. So basically the Sikkimese gain democracy but lose the country. According to Indian government claim, 92% of 'Sikkimese' voted to join India. Whenever you see percentage like this, you know something is not right. This is the reason Bhutan expelled 100,000 non-native resident of Bhutan out of the country before they went from a monarchy to democracy. Because they do not want to go down the route of Sikkim. Similiar treaty has been signed between Nepal and India which the Maoist vowed to terminate. The question is why is India so keen on signing all these treaties with its neighbour in the first place?

2)The portugese colony Goa was out right invaded by democratic India.

2) Arunachal Pradesh (Chinese called ZhangNan) was incorporated into British India when MaMahon demarcated the so called MaMahon Line. Here are facts that nobody dispute:

1) It was unilaternally demarcated by the British. The British did not tell the Qing dynasty that they have drawn up such a line. In fact the then Qing dynasty didn't know about it until ten years later.

2) No Chinese goverment(Qing dynasty, Nationalist ROC, Communist PRC) ever recognized it.

So isn't it the fact that the British deliberately did not tell the Qing dynasty a reverse way to show that at least the British think the Qing dynasty think Arunachal Pradesh (ZhangNan) belongs to the Chinese territory?

Here is the inconvenient truth:
The Nehru government claim more land from China than even colonial Britain. How so? Indian government claim territory beyond (in general north of) the illegal McMahon line. According to Nehru and subsequent Indian government, the Sino-Indian boundary should NOT be along the McMahon line but should be along the highest ridge line of the himalayas between the two countries. The position from the Indian government is that these are sacred Indian soil and hence is not negiotiable. This is the reason why Indian government claim hundreds of border intrusion from China into Indian territories each year. I hope the Indian people can calmly analyze this history and make his or her own judgement. I think this is the reason why so many Indian is nursing so much hate towards the Chinese.

A-Singh, I hoped you can calmly study the recent history and keep an open mind. May be China was really the agressor, like you think. Or may be, just may be, democratic India was the aggressor. Please do some research in this subject. It is not healthy for one side to harbour so much hate if India and China really wants to move forward together in this century.

K

i suppose A-singh was washbrained by CIA...

and in his fantasy he is James Bonde and in here to save us... olala... mon dieu...

A-singh

Another note. When the PRC surprise attack on the Indian troops in 1962, the initial place of engagement between the troops is NORTH of the McMahon line. This information is coming from the Indian government side. This is because of the Forward Policy of the Nehru government that send troops across the McMahon line to stake its claim on the territory. This is not any secret policy of the Indian government. Nehru himself appeared before the Indian congress on this matter.

So what I am saying is that India not just empty talking or posturing in staking a bigger piece of land from China but actually physically stationed troops to stake such a claim. And they did it for several years before 1962.

K

K,

Don't waste your time bashing Indians.

A-Singh is not an Indian, he is a Taiwanese, a typical 台独。

K

Like I said before, Communist Chinese imperialism ends at the Indo-Tibetean border.

I would quite like to see it kicked back to the Sino-Tibetean border.

Finally someone representing the mainstream Chinese viewpoints, the report is a little short. I challenge Time-Asia to write a longer piece representing the Chinese view points.

''challenge Time-Asia to write a longer piece representing the Chinese view points.''

How about a pro human rights viewpoint?

Asingh @"Like I said before, Communist Chinese imperialism ends at the Indo-Tibetean border.
I would quite like to see it kicked back to the Sino-Tibetean border.”
Hehe, you better say Tibet should be a part of India like Sikkimese like one of my India colleague said. In that case I guess China will strike again.
Fortunately nowdays the head of China and India government have enough talent to prevent a war which will cost a lot of life.

Posted by bluescreen2000 | May 7, 2008 7:40 PM

See my answer in the everest blog- A High and a Mystery for the Olympic Torch

A-Singh:
I think some of your thinkings are flawed. "Tibetans cannot become tour guides, or work in government etc... unless they know Chinese."
If a tour guide in Tibet don't know Chinese then what can he do? If he only knows Tibetan language then how does he communcate with tourists? Especially when most tourists are from China.
Might as well tell you that I'm in Singapore. The four main languages here are Chinese, Malayu, Tamil and English which is the official language. 80% Singaporeans are ethnic Chinese or Han. Only 2% are Eurasians. But everybody here knows English. To work in government body you must at least have a good understanding of English, and sometimes Malayu because Singapore is deeply influenced by Malay culture and was once part of Malaysia, even if you are not a Malay. It is not the problem of discriminating but communication. From what I understand, there are many languages in India and problems arise from this situation. It is hardly possible to have too many languages in the government. Within mainland China, there are many dialects. Years ago almost all Hong Kongers spoke Cantonnese and very few can speak "Pu Tong Hua" fluently. But now many knows both Cantonnese and "Pu Tong Hua". Tour guides are supposed to understand more than just their native language. In fact many can speak 3 or 4 to communicate with tourists, locals and minority groups.

I think you are right on the Tour Guide thing, esp. if many Tourists are Chinese.

But they can’t get any jobs in civil service, janitors or any employment by the state if they can’t speak Chinese. Sure that is Imperialism. That’s what the British did in India with English.

India allows regional languages to be part of state governance. So in Punjab, Punjabi, Hindi and English are allowed.

English - and the infrastructures the British benevolently bequested to India - is the saving grace of India. Imperialism may have caused much of the world suffering. But in India, it has been a great blessing.