One World, One Dream, One Serious Allegation

Liam Fitzpatrick: Wowowowowowowowowowow!!!

As an african that seems just a bit outlandish to suggest something like this on the part of the Chinese.

We all have biases but to even write a report like this and suggest as you did that it might be true is so irresponsible it beggars belief!

You and other western(white) journalists are just projecting your own biases. That is clear.
It is also clear that the Chinese as a race and people are quite different from westerners. If they wish to assimilate and pick up the worst of western societies they can but I think the Chinese are too clever to do that.

anonymous bar owner .........................

maybe anonymous people tell you he will attack president Bush;

maybe anonymous people tell you he will attack you;

maybe anonymous people tell you attack everyone in the World;

My god!......

anonymous people can tell you what you like to write here.

Man, This report is so ridiculous, i cannot belive CNN posted it too. Why everytime western media have report like this, it always says "some anonymous people" tell them that. Maybe the anonymous bar owner is their own imagination.

Yeah i can just see it now in the news Black American and African athletes (Kobe, Venus et al) banned from going into Local Chinese Pub/bar....Not!

The link in Liam's post is paywall'd. If you want to read the article and you don't have an account, you can see it at: http://olympics.scmp.com/Article.aspx?id=1300

Personally, I think this is odd. I'm not saying it isn't true, but why would SCMP report something like this (ban on serving blacks) without being able to confirm it with stronger evidence? Are unsubstantiated rumors good enough for print if they come from bar owners in Sanlitun?

Interesting topic on discrimination. Although you can surely find discrimination from certain individuals towards a particular race in any countries including China, I do not believe that anyone in the Chinese government dare issue decrees like you reported. There were plenty of cases shown that people who dared badmouthing the minorities in China lost their jobs or business. However, “one world, one dream” strikes my nerve somewhere. It reminds me that studies have shown up to 20% of American married men are fathering other’s child unknowingly. It turns out that this is also true in Canada and Europe. A couple of years ago physicians in Toronto involved in kidney transplant made bold decisions to inform the family, actually the father, if any of his children has genes that do not match. No wonder this “one world, one dream” is kind of irritating me because in the world of West, we are already evolving way beyond that stage. We are one world and one family.

Has “South China Morning Post” become a tabloid newspaper? …fishy, very fishy…

Actually this sounds quite credible. Any black person who has spent time in China would not be surprised.

"If they wish to assimilate and pick up the worst of western societies they can but I think the Chinese are too clever to do that."

wrong

--"anonymous bar owner?" LOL!

The wstern media can always badmonth with this "anonymous" whenever it come to China.
Will you consider "anonymous bar owner" as credible in America to badmouth? You will end up with a lawsuit.
“South China Morning Post”is too sense and too late to realize CHina is collecting the evidence to sue the SOB one by one.

Well, no news is good news!

And if there is news, it ought to be bad news!

This is just another proof of the principle of (western? eastern? or probably the world?) journalism.

Sad!

As it does not really do anybody any good! ... upset, angry ... any sorts of negativities.

But as long as it sells, journalists don't care... since their job is to sell.

I think it's safe to say even if this is even slightly true, it's obviously a case of exageration and misunderstanding on the part of the bar owner and/or a serious mistake and overstepping of authority on the part of a single incompetant probably low ranking official. After having lived here for more than 4 years it is definitely true that there are some aspects of racism towards black people, which is unfortunate, but it's nothing like this.

Well, the best way to confirm this is to go to a bar during Olympics. I go to Sanlitun very often and I see many black people around, obviously, there is not such a ban or it's not effective yet.

i'm not sure how many of you actually pay attention to what happens in sanlitun, but the story about the police rounding up 20 or so black people and arresting them for no reason is very true. It didn't make any news headlines, but many of us expats seen it happen. Chinese might turn the blind eye to racism in their country, but expats know very well what happens here.

I'm not taking sides on this. Although, i know for a fact that the police did round up blacks at sanlitun for no reason before(including the son of a diplomat), i am not going to say this news is real or not. But, i found this article on the internet which i thought went along with this.

北京（亚洲新闻/通讯社）—“因安全原因”，北京酒吧奥运期间禁止为黑人和蒙古人服务、禁止将桌椅放置街头、禁止街头表演；禁止出售无处方含“兴奋剂”成分药品。奥运将临，北京可谓一天一道禁令。此外，八月八日开幕式内幕首次曝光，展示空前烟火。

位于北京市中心工人体育馆附近著名的三里屯酒吧街服务员介绍，公安人员威胁他们不得让黑人和蒙古进入，许多人甚至被迫签字画押。官方的理由是同毒品、卖淫做斗争。蒙古人和黑人在京多从事上述两类活动。此外，鉴于安全原因，公共场所必须在午夜两点前关闭；酒吧必须提醒客人随身携带证件。奥运主会场两公里以内地区是否可以开业、或者必须关门尚不清楚。个别地区禁止在街头放置桌椅，“因过多外国人聚集起来可能制造事端”。不得进行公开的演出，禁止集会或者失控现象。

周大伟和艾克组成的爵士乐队表示，在北京总是很难找到演出场所。“这样只能进一步佐证外国人对中国社会的偏见：严格控制、文化机遇少。自我中伤”。

hm's article looks something like a shorter, translated version of the article on south china morning post

It is called undesirable activities here in North America ... a much more politically sensitive and correct way of expression.

The reality is, statistics would show that certain undesirable activities do seem to relate to certain groups of the population(ethnic, religious, age, and so on).

Although such statistical relations can not justify discremination, measures should be considerred to somehow break these relations.

As to the medias, a more constructive role they can play is they should not be satisfied with simply criticizing discremination. They should do more to help their readers understand these (probably)inconvenient or unformtable relations, and hopefully, what behind these relations.

To me, this is a more authentic journalism.

And to simply describ the tip of the iceberg without any indepth investigation, is cheap journalism, or perhaps, in certain circumstances,a politically motivated one.

We do have similar issues here in America, don't we?

That's is why our communities are so segregated because for we ordinary people, even though we perhaps don't say (certain undesirable activities related to certain groups), for the sake of political correctness, we do vote by our foot.

Let's go to Detriot to have a look, just as an example.

are you reporting or gossiping? Ridiculous. If this kind of reports would not hurt your career, then, the whole media system has died.

I do suggest you to be more professional. Here is not just a blog, but part of time magazine.

BTW, I do not care you report bad things from china, if they are true. But, this one is unacceptable. I am not interested in Rumors.

Do some Chinese have racial prejudice? No doubt. You can find the same in any corner of the world. In fact, Chinese prejudice against the blacks is far less serious than black prejudice against the Chinese. Talk to Chinese kids in any public school in the U.S., you will get the picture.

Is the Chinese a racist nation? Hardly, especially comparing to any of the nations with majority white.

While I am not sure how true this Time story is, I am not against what the Beijing authorities is doing to ensure Olympic safety, because common sense tells me that those are probably tactical measures guided by available data. If racial profiling makes sense at the LA airport, why not in the bars of Beijing?

hm

to gui: media has died. It is either run by corporate interest in the US, liberal freaks in Europe, and the chinese government in China.

JustAnotherguy: assuming white people are more racist than asians or blacks is being racist in itself. Most whites i know are actually more open to different races.

Tomorrow: Yes, the US has similar issues. But, we can't hide the issues in china by changing the story. this is about china. Also, we need to talk about the issues so that maybe future generations won't be caught up in racial stereotypes, and we can work on martin luther king's dream, but work on it throughout the entire world.

Personally, i see racism and nationalism on the rise in every country. It is sad considering we have more opportunity to talk to each other and learn from each other. Why can't we recognize our own faults while talking to others to help them realize their faults in a civilized manner? when will we truely come together in peace as people, not nations or races? Sorry, i am feeling a little ideological today. :)

Quote "hm": "JustAnotherguy: assuming white people are more racist than asians or blacks is being racist in itself. Most whites i know are actually more open to different races."

Are you kidding me? I speak of history, facts, and data; you speak of people "you know" -- your boss, officemate, and your dentist?

I have no grudge against anyone in particular; in fact, I give white people a lot of credit in achieving today's social structures. We don't see open slave trade anymore and we no longer have "Chinese Exclusion Act" in the book. But racism is all about power and control, and when you look at the world today, you cannot escape the fact that the white population, as a whole, still believe they are superior than others. This, by definition, is racism.

I don't complain about racism. I think it is inevitable because it's part of human nature. I just hope that racism of all races can be moderated through enlightenment, so it remains benign and non-destructive.

Agree with hm today.

Tomorrow, we Americans still want to see a divided and weak China. It is against everything we knew in this world with a strong, prosperous and autocratic China. This will send the wrong signals to other nations. We Americans are stong ideologues

to hm

"but the story about the police rounding up 20 or so black people and arresting them for no reason is very true"

this is illogic. there must be a reason behind people's behavior, except for the mentally disabled. you can say "police arrest black people",but you can't say "police arrest black people for no reason".do you know all these 20 people? do you stay with them all the time? why are you so sure they didn't do anything that justifies an arrest? maybe only fbi would dream of being able to surveil 20 people in china. if i'm not mistaken,you don't have police background. i can't understand why you're so sure, but i'm glad to see you're against racism. i know you travel intensively in china and can speak good chinese ,but it seems you need to know more about chinese's thinking. chinese police are too diplomatically prudent to arrest foreigners "for no reason".

Listen to the Chinese nationalists on here. It's anonymous, therefore you can't report it. Do they know anything about investigative journalism at all? If we were only to ever believe official sources, then no one would have ever found out that China had SARS. The Government would have covered that up. It tried to cover up the earthquake in Sichuan. The news about the government's obvious tightening of visa laws was denied for the first month and a half. You would think the Chinese would have learned by now not to trust their government!

The allegation here would not have been reported if it were not from a credible source. It's not just hearsay or gossip.

I guess most of the so-called nationalists actually called for investigative journalism.

In fact, their concern has been the lack of investigative journalism among many western journalists when it comes to the issue of China.

The credibility of many western journalists have been in question since their own act in reporting the 3-14 thing in Tibet, and the things around the Olympic Torch Relay.

Should we replay all of these things again?

The only thing these western journalists can do to regain their credibility in terms of reporting on issues related to China,and perhaps many other things, is to behave more in line with the principles of investigative journalism... that is, report the facts, not their own judgements.

In the end, it is about trust. And we all know it is something easy to destroy difficult to build.

You talk as if the Chinese media has credibility. Laughable. Worse, you talk about the western media as if it is a monolithic block controlled by one government. Because that's the way it is in 'liberated' China.

"The only thing these western journalists can do to regain their credibility in terms of reporting on issues related to China,and perhaps many other things, is to behave more in line with the principles of investigative journalism... that is, report the facts, not their own judgements."

Like they are allowed to,lol.

Give Liam a break. He's "reporting," on a blog (!), about an article in SCMP. Liam didn't interview these anonymous sources. He's not claiming this is true; far from it - he went out of his way to doubt it: "it seems highly unlikely," "another reason to be skeptical."

And Just Anotherguy:
You can't seriously be defending a ban like this, if it's true (or just on principle if it isn't). Even if there's racial profiling at LA Airport, it's not like people are BANNED from the airport due to their race. And the no-fly list, which is supposed to include specific names of people with suspected ties to terrorism, includes non-Muslim people, such as the famous example of Ted Kennedy.

Reports of China banning Black people from bars turns out to be BS.

More on the Beijing bar ban confusion
by Dedric Lam

http://shanghaiist.com/2008/07/21/lost_in_translation_more_on_the_bei.php#more

Tom Miller of the SCMP has been the center of many heated online discussions of late as a result of his article last Friday on bar owners in Sanlitun being asked to deny service to black patrons. What looked like an attempt to add credibility to his anonymous claims, he followed up with an article on Saturday claiming another anonymous source, this time a police officer, who denied that bars were instructed to deny service to patrons of African descent. His article though, still maintained that:

...another bar owner had been verbally warned by Public Security Bureau officers not to serve customers of Mongolian and African descent, while other bars had been ordered to sign chopped pledges to keep to curfews, not allow the illegal sale of drugs, and refuse certain customers.

According to Beijing Boyce, who has reported his independent findings about the SCMP claims on his blog, this might be just a case of miscommunication. Through his investigations, his sources tell him that bar owners were indeed asked to:

monitor black patrons. He [the bar owner] said the police told the reps that drug dealers are predominantly black in the area. He said the police did not ask bar owners to ban blacks.

As you can imagine, the story has spread like wildfire across blogs as well as more established media outlets. Even Shanghaiist's story was echoed verbatim on a Chinese blog. Not surprisingly though, while news outlets like The Age and Financial Times picked up the story in the context of the Beijing Olympics being "no-fun", latter commentary was less about the likelihood of Africans and Mongolians being turned away from bars but more about the SCMP's journalism.

Jeremy Goldkorn of Danwei comments:

...it seems highly unlikely that anyone with any real authority would "secretly" plan "to ban black people" from the city's bars.

The sources of the South China Morning Post are anonymous, and the paper does not seem to have any physical evidence to support the article.

Liam Fitspatrick from Time (in association with CNN) also recognises that:

The story, by Tom Miller and Peter Simpson, quotes an anonymous bar owner as saying that security officers forced him to sign a pledge that required him to prevent black people from entering his premises. A nameless “black British national” is also quoted, expressing his shock and disappointment.

The anonymity of the sources is also noticed by veteran blogger and China watcher Fons Tuinstra in the China Herald:

The proof of this was pretty flimsy: one anonymous bar-owner at Sanlitun.
I found the article remarkable for two reasons. First, because of its firm anti-China tone, while the South China Morning Post had adopted (as far as I could read them) since 1997 a pro-China tone that would even be considered nauseating by the editors of the China Daily.
Second, it fitted nicely into their old tradition in coming with firm allegations, based on nothing, so they could sell the next day their paper again with a firm denial of a false rumor they had created themselves in the first place.

Fons then continues to post his FriendFeed conversations with other China netizens who also find the SCMP report a little hard to swallow.

The most convincing debunking of this story has been the hard work of Beijing nightlife blogger Beijing Boyce who actually went bar to bar to to speak to bar owners about this potential ban. Boyce suggests that the "black" referred to may not actually be about skin color but "bad elements". The Chinese term for organized crime syndicates or the triads is 黑社会 (literally black society).

In his latest entry Boyce also comments on the SCMP's lack of transparency in reporting:

Apparently the policy [to ban patrons of African descent] is so secret that the police are keeping it from all but a few bar owners who can be trusted to reveal it to foreign journalists.

Unlike the Hong Kong daily newspaper, Boyce manages to name the bars that helped him debunk the SCMP report.