The Siege of Gaza

Sure, open the borders and let the Palestinians carry bombs into Israel instead of shooting them over the fence. Makes a lot of sense...if you're a member of Hamas, which, by the way,is a TERRORIST organization, not a MILITANT organization. I don't know why you have so much trouble saying that word. TERRORIST, TERRORIST... See how easy it is to say!!

Good post. I recently saw a documentary done by an Israeli women on strawberry growers in Gaza that reminded me of this post. The growers learned their skills as workers in Israel and hoped for better relations with Israel as it would help their business.

Seems like some people in the US and Israel like using the word "terrorist" like others used the word "communist" to villify their enemies. When the UK ruled Palestine there were some jewish militant groups that assassinated British diplomats and they were labeled "terrorists". One of those "terrorists", Yitzak Shamir of the likud party later became prime minister of Israel. I'm sure that the UK viewed George Washington as a "terrorist" as well.

Hamas is the democratically elected government of Palestine and the "militants" are freedom fighters trying to free Palestine from Israeli occupation. The settlements and permanent IDF bases may be gone but Gaza is completely encircled with no controls over it's borders with Israel and Egypt as well as no control over it's seacoast and airspace. Israel has created a concentration camp of over 1,400,000 people and drops bombs on it, fires artillary into it and militarily assaults it fairly regularly.

Well, another fine example of the peace promoting Middle East policy of the great "Leader of the Free World" and its "Junior Partner." I don't know which is worst: the terror tactics of the Zionists or the hypocrisy of their employees in Washington.

The Middle East has no future.

I don't understand the Palestinians claims. A country (in our case Israel) has all the rights to trade or avoid trading any goods with its neighbors. Try bringing a track of Avocados from Tijuana to San Diego. Needless to say they have the right to do so when Gaza is ruled by terrorists regime. A country (in this case Israel) has the right to allow or prevent people getting into its territory or to disallow them from working in Israel. Moreover, these people including the day-workers are a security threat ...
The best part in Palestinian hypocrisy in this article is the claim "... we should control our own borders" . Unfortunately the border is between Gaza and Israel and the other side has and does control his side of the border, is security arrangement, economic and entry permission policies.

Shouldn't the Palestinians have considered this Israeli (and the entire world except Iran and Taliban) response against them before supporting the Hamas ?

The problem is that Gaza and the West Bank are not independent countries but are territories created when Palestine was destroyed. The Palestinians have no control over their airspace, no control over their seaports, etc.. and have no way to live independently. This is the price of destroying other people's countries and homes. When you occupy their land, you're responsible for the inhabitants.

What happened to Hamas is the ultimate example of the hipocrisy of Israel and the West. Democracy is great, as long as you vote for the people we told you to vote for. Step out of line and it's starvation you can look forward to. Instead of engaging the people who won a democratic election in the Palestinian territories, we cut off aid and further pushed these folks into the arms of Iran.

We all saw what happened when Israel quit Gaza completely.

Did the Gazans begin to build the institutions of a civil society? No. They immediately began to smuggle and manufacture weapons, and launch them at Israeli civilians.

The pretense of protesting an occupation is nothing but a rhetorical device. The Palestinians should be judged by their actions. They have not shown themselves to be desirous of peace or stability, only violence and extremism.

Another very ill informed article. While Israel indeed remains the occupying power of Gaza there is no legal demand for Israel to allow trade (either of work or materials) between the occupied territory and the occupying power.
Furthermore, elections and indeed democracy have to do with internal rule of a country. External relations have nothing to do with democracy and democracies can boycott or blockade other countries even soi disant democracies.
Finally, Mr. Butters notes that there is no security on the Palestinian side of the border. He does not note that Hamas has explicitly stated they refuse to provide such security or ensure the security of the Israeli border guards. On the contrary, they have launched mortar and rocket attacks. This is not quite a safe mode of operation of any border terminal and hardly likely to encourage reopening. Israel has offered to open alternative crossing but Hamas has refused.
Mr Butters I would suggest getting your facts straight, you can then distort them as much as you like!

No, there's no "legal" demand for Israel to allow trade, but it's incredibly "stupid" to think that people will simply sit and starve quietly. As the occupying force, Israel is responsible for the inhabitants of Gaza. The gruppenfuhrers in Tel Aviv need to do a better job of controlling their primitive urges to starve and kill Arabs.

A siege requires Gaza to be closed in on all sides. Gaza is not inside Israel but also borders Egypt.

If Gazans are besieged then Egypt is also complicit. Not mentioning Egypt reinforces my opinion that this writer (in common with most western journalists today) has a bias that seeks to blame Israel and the U.S. wherever possible.

Brad B. Ottawa, Canada

To Gaza:
The question of whether it is a smart decision is no doubt left to those who must make it. You are no doubt aware of the rockets being fired from Gaza and the attempts at other attacks (mines, bombs, kidnapping etc). Hamas is complicit as all of this. Given this situation it make perfect sense to take precautions and deny trade. In fact I am unaware of any case in which countries effectively at war (Hamas controlled Gaza and Israel) trade.

To Brad:
The Egypt-Gaza border is actually not controlled solely by Egypt. Israel has monitoring cameras and has the right to exercise a veto over entrance and exit. It's a complicated situation with EU monitors in the middle but that is the gist of it. I'm not ignoring the bias of Mr. Butters which is very obvious to any semi-intelligent person but Israel does control access to Gaza.

Perhaps Mr. Butters can ponder the statement he wrote "The Israelis have sealed the crossing in part as a response to the rockets that are regularly launched from Gaza into Israeli towns in the Negev, occasionally killing civilians, and often damaging homes."

And ask himself why Israel is required to trade Gaza?

More importantly, perhaps during his next visit to Gaza, rather than questioning businessmen as to why their business has dried up, ask the question why haven't the missiles stopped? In fact, he could even set up a round table discussion between the businessmen and those luanching the missiles, and ask them if it was worth it.

I am still amazed that people seem to think that any country is required to open their borders to anybody.

This is the opposite of international law, the United Nations Charter and common sense.

What about the border between Egypt and Gaza? Does Israel control it? No Egypt controls their side and Hamas controls the other. But only Israel is demanded to open their borders while the terrorists launch attacks every day. Israel does supply food, water and power everyday even though that is not a requirement.

Obsessionthemovie(.com) was aired last night on Israeli television - ch 1 (http://www.iba.org.il/)

It is reasonable to assume that this kind of film may touch many and cause trembling in some.

After we're all done trembling; Is there any sense in re-thinking it all out and taking action?

The obsessionthemovie(.com) web site seems to suggest something of the sort:

"7. Think about what's important to you

Spend some serious time thinking about the values that are important to your community. For example: education, justice, equality, and social responsibility. Why are they important? How do we express them? Discuss them with your friends and colleagues at school and in the workplace. If you're a parent or teacher, engage your children in ways that will encourage them to think about our shared values, and some of the ways different cultures around the world express them.

8. Live what's important to you

The biggest defense against this threat is to stand strong, and strive to bring these ideals into our lives. We should be as equally zealous as suicide bombers, to choose to live lives of truth and meaning. Remind yourself daily that you can distinguish between right and wrong, and you're not being intolerant or narrow-minded. One can be open-minded and still recognize that some beliefs and actions help destroy the good we have struggled to bring into our beautiful world."

Brings to mind something I saw on Israeli telelvision (ch 2) following the Hamas takeover of Gaza - if I'm not mistaken a Hamas representative was quoted as saying that Hamas aims to create an exemplary Muslim state.

Could "the west" give Hamas enough rope to show what they mean by exemplary Muslim state.

Could such an exemplary Muslim state, be calm and peaceful, generous and loving, tolerant and open?

Well, I am not an expert - certainly not an expert on mid-east subjects; But if for example, one created a secondlife(.com) island, named it Gaza and populated it proportionaly - what would that look like?

Could the island be peacful?

Loving?

Gaza aint much of a dream island. Sure most of u (us) wouldn't want to be in charge of it's sewage system.

For a peaceful, loving solution
to all sorrows.

Israel's unilateral withdrawl, without Gazan cooperation, doomed Gaza from day one.

Someone should write the rule-book for "how to resist occupation in a way that is acceptable to the west..."

It fascinates me that in this country, this conflict is presented as though the main problem is the "wrong response" to being occupied, rather than to the fact of occupation itself.

Why do so many American have so much trouble saying it? Murderous, illegal occupation! There..!

What an idiot. Perhaps he could also mention how wonderful Gazans have been to the people of Sderrot, but sorry Jewish lives are worthless compared to Palestinians. Wait, isn't the terrorist organization Hamas running Gaza who put Mickey Mouse on their television to incite toddlers to commit murder of Jews. Yes, all Palestinians are victims and can do no wrong. it is also wonderful how the media reports how many Palestinians are killed by other Palestinians. That is right, Moslem lives only count when they can be used to vilify the Jews.

"how wonderful Gazans have been to the people of Sderrot"
Why would he mention it? Read the post above you !
"the media reports how many Palestinians are killed by other Palestinians"
Who's responsible for the fighting? You call him an idiot, while your comment supposedly a product of a civilisation that promotes rights and freedom? It sounds like the Al-Qaeda regime, you are doomed because you are occupied, since you lost, you have no right to take your land back,identiy or the right to complain! It's the biggest jail in the history.Give them a country and the Holly Mosque, and we'll all have peace from these comments.

John & Canadian Mike,

Rockets fall on Israel because Israeli gunships strafe Gaza. This cycle of violence started in 1948 when one country was casually destroyed and replaced by another country. In that year, a majority of the inhabitants of that land was dispossed, driven from their homes at gunpoint, and condemmned to a hopeless non-existence in refugee camps. And so, the Palestinians fight back.

If Sderrot wants peace, then it's not that difficult. Address the injustice of dispossessing all of those "other" people and the rockets will stop. Lifting the siege of Gaza and begin negotiating with Hamas would be a good start.

Jewish lives are worth just as much as Palestinian lives. That's why I am ashamed to live in a country (wonderful U.S.A.) that's responsible for the pain, suffering, and daily deaths of the Palestinian people. I am ashamed.

Jewish are systematically threatened and forced to emigrate to other countries by Muslim majority everywhere in Muslim world. Even today, open calls for murder and killing of Jews from majority of Muslim countries and governments are suprising and even tolerated by the whole world. Not to mention that as an Israeli citizen you cannot enter ANY Muslim country. There are NO Jews living in some Muslim countries though they were there even before Islam existed. Now Israel is tolerating Palestinians even when they are bombing it constantly (!). Palestinian leaders have one message for the world and the other one (destroy Israel) on meetings with Muslim leaders.
How Israel can negotiate with Hamas which actually does not recognize Israel rhight for existance!? Even in Qur'an and Islam textbooks Jews (together with Christians) are stated as second-grade sort of people (Muslims are of course number one)!!!
And for Gaza: if you are so ashamed of living in USA, please go to Saudi Arabia, especially to Mecca (forbidden to enter for all non-Muslims, otherwise your life is not guaranteed) and enjoy living there - when they cut your hand or foot or takeout your eye (still practicized today as punishment for criminals) you will feel different.

Can we cut the rhetoric and hatred and think simply about the best way to make life at least bearable for ALL the people in that long-suffering region? Perpetuating a spirit of revenge will only perpetuate the killings and misery. Let's instead find humane solutions to the region's problems. Selling a mass of new weapons to the countries of the region, as the Bush government wants to do, certainly is not a solution to attain peace.

There were faults and misdeeds committed on all sides of this conflict since 1947, including the cynical partitioning of Palestine by a Great Britain in a hurry to evacuate what it considered a potato too hot to handle. Yes, Jewish refugees from Europe needed a new home. Yes, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians lost their homes in 1948, some after heeding calls by Arab governments, who felt confident they could crush the new Jewish state, to leave the combat zones, some being chased away by Jewish extremist groups (Stern Gang, Irgun) or dispossessed by arbitrary decrees from the new Israeli government. The crisis was compounded by the intolerance and hatred shown by Arab countries towards the new Jewish state. Those Arab countries then initiated a number of wars that they lost badly, drawing the map of the Israel/Palestine we know today.

Does Israel have the right to exist? Certainly! Hamas' insistence on not wanting to recognize that right will only perpetuate the conflict and reflects a refusal to accept the reality of things. Whether Hamas, Hezbollah or Iran likes it or not, Israel is here to stay.

Do the Palestinians have a right to their own country? Certainly! Probably the best and most just way for that would be for Israel to vacate completely its settlements in the West Bank, abandon its military occupation of the Jordan River Valley and let East Jerusalem to the Palestinians. That would eliminate the arguments for anti-Israeli attacks from the great majority of Palestinians. That would leave some Palestinian hardliners, including Hamas, to be convinced to abandon terrorism in order to make a lasting peace possible. Will that be easy? No! There are still too many extremists on both sides of this conflict that are unwilling to stop fighting until they get ALL they want. If peace is to be given a chance, moderation and compromise will have to be shown, by both sides. The USA will also have to show a more balanced policy towards the region and start proving that it can understand the root problems of the conflict.

Michel,
The claim that "arab governments called on Palestinians to leave so that..." cannot be verified. In fact, evidence points to exactly the opposite - arab governments urging palestinians to stay put.
I find it difficult to fathom a solution for Israel unless it accepts the right of those to return to their land, and abandon the anachronic desire of having a purely jewish state, specially one established by displacing millions of natives.

Michel, I'm not seeing any hatred in my posts, so I'm going to assume you also didn't find any. I don't call for violence against anyone, only justice for the dispossed. You state that Israel has the right to exist. OK, what about Palestine's right to exist? Why is no one speaking for a country that was wiped off the map to create Israel? Why are the Palestinians the only people weeping over the ashes of Palestine?

Dave has a good point. That area of land has many inhabitants, Jews and Arabs. It doesn't make any sense for one race to dominate another. Let's have democracy. Let's allow everyone to have a vote and determine the future of that land. To say that area has to be a "Jewish state" is as logical as saying South Africa has to be a "Whites Afrikaner state."

Bluebeird, the oppression suffered by Jews in Muslim countries is deplorable and I condemn it. Intolerance and bigotry against anyone is a disgrace. Israel "tolerates" Palestinians because it doesn't have a choice. Gas chambers/crematoriums are too messy and result in bad publicity. IDF/Mossad terror for almost 60 years also haven't broken the Palestinians' will to resist. Why should I leave America? I'm ashamed of the U.S.' part in the Palestinian tragedy, along with the internment of Japanese-Americans during WW2, slavery, etc.... and I have no intention of leaving. My way of dealing with injustice is to stay right here and speak out against it.

Nice idea about democracy and tolerance Gaza but in let us be realistic here. There is no way you can make tolerance between Israel and Palestinians. Jews think that this part of land is theirs as written in Talmud and as they have told each other for generations. Palestinians claim right to that territory on the basis of centuries of existence and Jerusalem is also mentioned in Qur'an. What we have here is actually ancient dispute: who came first? Or, which is first, chicken or egg? There is hardly any serious reasoning in all these on all sides, though Israelis are much more realistic and ready to compromise than Palestinians. This is the fact that must be stated and appreciated. Talking about terror? Think of achievements of PLO, Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt and some other nice "peacefull" groups. Any other terrorist groups in the world except Muslim ones? No.
Also, Gaza, you want democracy in Middle East. This is kind of childish wish, practicized also by Bush. Look at all Arab and Muslim countries. Name me ONE really democratic country. You have Kingdom of Saudi (king), Sultanate of Oman (sultan), Kingdom of Bahrain (king), emirate of Kuwait (emir), Syria is republic, though run by merciless dictator Bashar al-Assad, there is dictator Mubarak in Egypt (prisoned one egyptian blogger for antigovernment blog). As you can see, Arabic countries are by default medieval or dictatorship. So be thankful that you are living in real democracy where you can publicly state your antigovernment opinion and not be sentenced to death or prison because of it.
Also, not only Jews are oppressed in Arabic and Muslim countries. So are Christians and members of all other religious groups (every other religion than Islam is strictly forbidden in Saudi Arabia - even having a Bible for personal use!). And if you are so unlucky to finish at Sharia court for some dispute with local Muslim you are guilty by default because this law says that if you did not come in the country there would be no dispute!!!
So, Gaza, first things come first and you first must protect your own values and then somebody elses.

to gaza. millions of jews lost their famlies,homes possesions ect' in the holocaust. yet after 2-3 years all of them fixed up their tourchured bodies and souls and moved on with their lives and no one was found in th dp camps. while its been 50+ years and the palstinians still remain in their refugee camps blaming israel for problems when its their own leaders who keep them there to gain simpathy twords the palistinian plight. get a grip move on with life and stop blaming israel for the problems they inflict on them seleves.

to steve. it ridiculess to compare the jewish fighters in 48 and george washington to hamas TERORISTS. the above mentioned were revelutionary fighters who targeted the military and goverment of the country they were fighting wich is the normal and honorable way of conducting war while hamas cowardly targets civilians and terorize the lives of israelies. if they want to fall under the catagory of militants let them fight like men and wage war against the israeli miltary like the amercians did in the revelutionary war and the jews did in 48 sinse they dont they fall under the category of TERORISTS and deserve no respect or ligitamcy this article gives them

Hi levi,

Actually I was referring to the assassination of British and U.N. Officials by the jewish terrorists known as the Stern gang or Lehi that Yitzhak Shamir led before the 1948 war.

In 1941 Shamir was imprisoned by British authorities. After Stern was killed by the British in 1942, Shamir escaped from the detention camp and became one of the three leaders of the group in 1943, reforming it as "Lehi".

During his tenure, Shamir tried to negotiate directly with Nazi representatives in Damascus for help in liberating Palestine from British rule[1], and under him Lehi was also responsible for the 1944 assassination of Britain's minister of state for the Middle East, Lord Moyne; an assassination attempt against Harold MacMichael, the High Commissioner of the Palestine in the same year (Kushner, 2002, p. 348), and the 1948 assassination of the United Nations representative in the Middle East, Count Folke Bernadotte who was seen by Shamir and his collaborators as an anti-Zionist and "an obvious agent of the British enemy" (Gazi, 2002, p. 32).

to steve. what ever connection to the nazi's shamir had is irelevent to the conversation at hand. and in regard to brittish officals that is part of the occuping goverment and made sense to attak them just like attaking the miltary. your only vaild argument is on the un offical which i believe happend once by a lone person not an organasion. hence hamas wich murders civilians as a policy of 'ressitance' for the furtherence of its agendas has no comparision to george washinton or any jewish militants what so ever and to comapre them is frankly a low way to bring out any point you had in mind

hi steve
just to clairify if hamas would stick to only attacking israeli miltary and goverment installations in the 'occupied teretories there would be what to argue. or if in 48 jews were blowing them selves up in london pizza shops god forbid then there would also be what to argue but being that is and was not the case your comparison is an insult to the memories of those israeli and american fighters.

Re Michael's comment:

"That would leave some Palestinian hardliners, including Hamas, to be convinced to abandon terrorism in order to make a lasting peace possible. Will that be easy? No!"

It is very easy to tell other people to take a chance for peace. It is harder to actually take that chance when you yourself will bear the consequences if it turns out that those hardliners can't be talked out of their maximalist positions after all, and continue to blow up cafes and buses even after territorial concessions are made that reasonable people of good will like Michael might consider sufficient. There was a time when many on the Israeli left were willing to take the chance. That time has passed. Here's a link to a pretty good article that captures the mood of the large Israeli educated left: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3411227,00.html

In short, poster Gaza, even though they wish they could, they don't believe that there is a set of concessions short of the one suggested by Ahmadinejad -- all the Jews move back to Europe -- that will stop the rockets, even if you believe it (or maybe you don't). Nor are they willing to trust their lives to the one state arab majority democracy you propose. And you don't really expect them to. Maybe if there was one succussful arab majority democracy anywhere in the world that respected the rights of religious minorities at least as much as Israel respects the rights of its minorities, we could at least discuss this option with a straight face.

Does this mean that there is no hope? Not at all. Hamas and Iran are as alarming to arab governments as they are to Israel; a "West Bank first" strategy facilitated with their cooperation may hold out real hope for improving living conditions there. But Israel will not open its border with Gaza while Hamas is in charge there -- why should it? Are the businessmen who tell Israel not to lose their friendship currently restraining any missles from falling on Sderot? If not, then what are the negative consequences for Israel in making them into enemies, too? And even if there are any, are they outweighed by the certainty that opening the border would give Hamas an opening to send more bombers to Tel Aviv?

I do feel sorry for Gazans. They don't have a lot to look forward to.

I think the Gazans are in much better shape than the Palestinians in the West Bank.

1. The Gazans no longer live in an apartheid state since the Israelis removed their settlements and IDF forces. The West Bank is a textbook apartheid state, ask jimmy Carter.

2. The Gazans no longer have the corrupt do-nothing Fatah government with warlords like Dahlan. The West Bank has numerous warlords/private militias.

3. The Gazans are financially supported by Iran and the money gets to the people as Hamas runs education services, health services and social services and ahve done this even before they were elected. The money sent by the US to the west bank will only be used to strengthen Fatah militias and fatten the wallets of the Fatah elite.

4. The Gazans have a government that they democratically elected in an internationally monitored election. The new west bank prime minister is an appointed former world bank accountant.

The only problem are the ongoing attacks from Israel. Since the Hamas goverment was able to free the BBC journalist from the Fatah affiliated Dagmush clan, perhaps they will be able to stop the militants from firing those useless ineffective Qassam rockets at Sderot. More Israelis have been hit by lightning than those amateur bottle rockets. Why bother? What reason would the Israelis use to attack the Gazans if there were no Qassam rockets?

Bluebeird, I agree 100%. Both Palestinians and Jews have legitimate claims on the land. Let’s have a U.N. supervised election with ALL of the inhabitants being allowed to vote and determine the future of that land. Like in South Africa, both blacks and whites have claim on the land. There was an election and all South Africans were allowed to vote, regardless of skin color. Are you opposed to the idea of an election where everyone can vote?

The PLO only came about after Palestine was destroyed. They were formed to fight and get Palestine back. What would you do if your country was destroyed and taken over by another group? Would you just accept it and not fight back? Bluebeird, most of the dictatorships you mentioned are supported by the U.S. The dictators of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc…. all enjoy the support of America. If we stop supporting these brutal regimes, then maybe we wouldn’t look like such hypocrites. Again, I am strongly opposed to the oppression suffered by Jews (or anyone else) in Muslim countries (or anywhere else).

Levi, given the fact that the Palestinians only ended up in refugee camps because their country/homes were destroyed to create Israel, I find your post somewhat amazing. They inflict these problems on themselves? I didn’t realize that the Palestinians destroyed Palestine! Thank you for bringing this incredible fact to my attention. The only reason that Jews “moved on with their lives” was because another country was destroyed to make a new home for them. If Israel is willing to help destroy France, and make that land “New Palestine,” then I’m sure the Palestinians would be more than happy to relocate to New Hebron (formerly Paris) and “get a grip move on with life”.

to gaza. acutally my grand father on my mothers side surrvived auswitz and my grand mother hid as a non jew to save her life both lost most of their family and both came from wealthy homes that was stolen from them and came to the us with nothing and built a multi million dollar buisness and a large and beutiful family. and most of the surviors acutally moved to the us and no land was buldozed for them there they built from the bottom up with out the international aid that the palistinans receive today 50+ years later. so yes the only people to balme are the paistinan leaders who keep their people in such poverty to gain international sypathy, or them selves for just crying about there problems and not moving on. so if my grand parents moved on from a incomparable disaster, the houlcaust with no ones help. then the palistinian refuges could get their act to gether and get off their lazy rumps and start getting a life.

to steve. A more americans die from car accidents then in 9/11 why bother?!!! B your wrong people are dieing and getting hurt and i personnely saw tents set up in jeruslam for those who reccently lost their homes by the 'amuter bottle rockets'. and the people who live there live in utter terror that there kid wont return from school today god forbid. but why bother?!!! are you crazy
ps are you jewish my guess is yes

Your grandparents’ home and wealth were stolen from them, then surely, you must understand the anguish of having everything you own in life taken away from you at gunpoint. Your grandparents can tell you about the pain of being forcefully dispossessed from their country and home. And yet, you show no sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people. Why? Their homes, their country, everything they had in the world were taken from them in 1948, and yet you look at them with nothing but contempt. Why?

You blame them for being in refugee camps. Where else can they go? We’re talking about millions of people, not 2 or 3 hundred. What country would take them in? For that matter, why should they go anywhere? Instead of being refugees in some other country, the Palestinian people/leadership have decided to fight for their Palestine. Despite decades of Israeli/U.S. efforts to get the world to not even recognize that there is such a people as the “Palestinians,” only “refugees” or “terrorists,” they still struggle on.

Despite overwhelming odds, the Palestinians still fight, survive, and their spirits have not been broken. I find such courage quite admirable.

to gaza. almost no ne was chased from their homes at gun point stop making dramtising what happend. they fled from wars that were not stared by israel but rather by nebouring arab countries and should blame them for starting the war instead of agreeing to the un partion praposel. and given the years of attacks at israel from palistinan terorists it made sense for israel not to let them back were the security risk would much worse. the paistinans i do admire are those who moved on to build homes and lives i went around the west bank a little and saw many living in nice homes. the pitty i have for those in the refugee camps is that they are being brain washed by their leaders to stay there to gain world sympathy and that they should hate and blow themselves up. and i dont respect the 'struggle' and 'courage' for 'palistine' being that there method is to blow up civilians in pizza shops and buses, if they would fight the israeli army and goverment they would be a respected enmy not one hate and have no admeration for.

"almost no ne was chased from their homes at gun point stop making dramtising what happend. they fled from wars that were not stared by israel but rather by nebouring arab countries "
You claim the above to be a fact?
The Arabs are the one's that equipped the Israeli folks that claimed "From the Nile To The Forrat?"!!!!

levi, your parents are lucky to come from a civilised country called Germany, were they give all their citizens a "Passport!!"
Imagine if they were Palestineans! Can you? I don't think so.

"the pitty i have for those in the refugee camps is that they are being brain washed by their leaders "

It's very easy coming from a well to do familly, backed up by the biggest force in the world to sit back with your legs crossed,sucking on your popsicle and stating so! Do you get your $20/mo from Israel? If so, it's taxable here!:)

Levi, so you're telling me that the Palestinians voluntarily gave up their homes, in which they've lived for generations to Jews, so these Jews can erase Palestine from the map and created Israel? Wow, those Palestinians are truly generous!!

The UN partition idea was idiotic from the very start. How can the UN just decide to carve up one country to create another country? Does it make any sense if tomorrow, the UN decide to divide Sweden in 2 to create a separate country for people fleeing the war in Darfur?

Years of attacks against Israel? Well, just let the Palestinians go back home, give them the right to vote in a free election, stop trying to have a country only dominated by Jews, and then all attacks will stop. You can't dispossess an entire race of people and then expect them not to fight back. Look at South Africa. The minute that black people were given equal rights, you have peace. The minute that white South Africans stopped trying to dominate the country, you have elections and peace.

You admire the Palestinians with nice homes? OK, I'll evict you from your home tomorrow at gunpoint. If you agree not to fight back, and just "move on" to some other place, then I will also admire you as well. Just remember not to fight back.

So you disapproved of the methods that they use to fight you with? Just tell the Americans to supply them with billions of dollars worth of gunships, artillery, etc... and then they can kill Israeli kids with these things. After all, Israel doesn't have any problems killing Palestinians with these weapons.

Levi, please do the right thing. This racial domination stuff isn't going to work. You're not going to get away with this, regardless of how many weapons the U.S. sends your way.

to gaza. dont worry i never thought thwm to be that generous. i said they fled from a war that was started by them not israel and stop using that fraze 'evicted at gun point because that almost never happend. the jewish calim to land is not the un partion but rather from the bible and the fact that is our homeland for millenums. the un praposal was a way to acomdate a peacful compramise witch the arabs rejected. and there were plenty of jews living there from before. the attacks on jews did not start after the 'eviction' but rather much before under the brittish mandate. like the jews of chevron who where massacured by their arab neibours and during the war in 48 the arbs targeted civilians women and children. so its understandable why israel would not let them back after such behavour. and to say that israel should bring them back and rebuild their homes would be like demanding from america to rebuild germany after ww1, in ww2 they did only to gain help against the soveits. not because thay had an obligation. and being that the arabs started the war why should israel bend over backwards to acamodate them. and by the way the jewish fighters in 48 managed to beat the brittish without billions of forein aid so like i said if they would fight honorably i would respect them seeing as they dont i have no respect. and that comment about 'israel doesnt have any problems killing palistinainswith these weapons' is pathetic israel does not go out there and blow up any one they protect them selves from terorists wich is their right and if tragicly civialains get caught in the cross fire(witch israel goes at length to avoid unlike most wars like ww2 were cities were faltend)then that is sad but thats war and if the terorists would stop there attacks it wouldt happen. and where did i come off racialy dominant. stop making untruthful out ragous comments to make things so dramtic.

OK, they were not evicted at gunpoint. They fled because their villages and neighborhoods were being overrun by heavily armed Jews. After the fighting ended, their homes became Jewish properties. This is not the same as being evicted at gunpoint?

The problem with claiming the bible (a religious text) as your authority for real estate ownership is what do you do when you run across people who don’t believe in your religion? If my religion states that I own your house, does that give me the right to send you into a refugee camp? Jews have been living in that territory for a very long time. Agreed! But, they don’t live there by themselves. There are other people (Arabs) who have also been living there for a long time, and also have a legitimate claim on the land. How can you deny these other people their rights and claim sole ownership and domination over the “Jewish state?”

The war in 1948 was to destroy Palestine and replace it with a Jewish dominated country called Israel. Of course, the Palestinians fought against this idea. They fought against the destruction of their country, and continued to fight to this day. You are saying that Israel has the right to “not let the Palestinians back” because they fought against Israel’s creation? To create Israel, Palestine had to be destroyed, so obviously every single Palestinian had to resist. If I try to destroy Russia tomorrow to create a new country, of course every single Russian is going to fight me. That’s only logical.

Israel needs to recognize that the land has a population of both Jews and Arabs. Both groups have a right to the land and power should be determined through free elections in which everyone participated. You can’t deprive the majority of the population of their rights and then call them “terrorist” when they fight back. This is equivalent to Asian-Americans claiming that the U.S. is an “Asian state.” Does that sound right? Asians are the minority in the U.S., but they’re going to dispossess 90%+ of the American population to ensure that Asians come to power?

Levi, all the Palestinians are doing is using guerrilla warfare against you. They have no tanks and gunships to fight you, so they use suicide bombers. Conventional warfare is only for those who can afford it. If I incorrectly suggest that you believe in “racial dominance,” then I apologize. I was confused by your persistent defense of the policies and actions which have caused the destruction of Palestine and the dispossession of the Palestinian people.

to gaza. the bible besides being a ligitmate claim to the land is a proof that the jews were there long befor the arabs so if when one country conquers another and must then give it back then lets go all the way back up the chain to the jews and if it does not have to give it back so then niether should israel. by the way those who did not flee in 48 later became israeli arabs with all rights including to vote, and that little bit of 'hevily armed jews' makes them sound like the under dog when in reality 5 arab countries attacke israel and it just managed to fend them off. no one forced them to flee and i reiterate that perhaps if the arabs hadnt targeted women and children before and durring the war maybe they would have been let in but seeing as they did and to this day their method of fighting is to attack women and children, whitch by the way is teror not gurilla warfare, gurilla warfare is when the attack the miltary and goverment in an unconventional way instead of head army vs army like the jews did to the briitsh in 47 48. and sinse that continues to be the method till there is a change in mind set and in schools they stop teaching children hate and violence then there can be no peace and no respect. its interesting you insist on a vote when in most arab countreies there is no right to vote why dont you go campain the saudies or syrains should have a right to vote why do care more for these arabs and not those. israel coquered the land from jordan and egypt in a defencive war why should they give back. and why wasnt any one fighting for a palistian stae while it was under jordan. because the arabs care only that there is a jewish land in their middle east not for palistine. and that being the case how can we deal with these people when our presence is bothering them not their land as seen clearly that most of israels wars were with other arab countries not palistinians. so if they hate the very fact that we are here then i see very little place for an understanding till there is a change in mind set on the arab side.

levi & Gaza: sorry to intrude on the lovefest, but I thought you'd find this interesting:

http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/haifa.htm

It's an appeal by the Haifa Workers' Council to Arab residents of Haifa. My link is the translation and there's a picture of the poster via a link on the page.

Gaza, your history is somewhat inaccurate. There simply was no country called Palestine. It was a region. That is why the various plans for a Jewish State, including Resolution 181, were viable. Israel was not attacked specifically by Palestinians but by surrounding countries. Some of these had themselves only recently been configured by carving and redistributing land. The only problem with Israel was that it was to be Jewish.

to brad. thankx for the link. and good point, today i visited a museum in israel and we were discussing the 48 war and the guide told us that the west bank was given to jordan not a seperate state and that being the case and israels current peace with jordan i see no claim of the palistinians to the land.

Brad, welcome to the debate. Pull up a chair, make yourself comfortable, and prepare to spend a few hours with Levi and myself.

Levi, no one is asking anyone to “give back” anything. I’m asking that the rights of ALL the inhabitants of the land be respected and everyone be given a voice and a vote. No one suggested that white South Africans “give back” South Africa. The international community just wanted blacks to be given a voice and a vote. They were given this, and apartheid came to an end. I’m glad that Israeli Arabs have rights, but Israel was created with a permanent Jewish majority through the dispossession of the vast majority of the Arab population. The reason that the 5 other Arab countries attacked was because Arab land was being set aside for a non-Arab group of people to form their own countries. If you carve a portion of China to hand over to the Kurds so they can form Kurdistan, do you think the Chinese would just sit by? Everyone fights using their own methods and weapons. The FLN also attacked French colonialists during Algeria’s war for independence. Teaching children to hate? Just ask why do they hate you? I also want the people of Saudi Arabia & Syria to be able to vote and free to choose their own government. However, this blog and our discussion are about Israel and its conflict with the Palestinians, and not about Saudi Arabia or Syria. I will be more than happy to discuss those countries with you as well.

I’m not sure that the Arabs are bothered by the presence of Jews. The main point of contention is that a Jewish minority dispossessed the Arab population living in Palestine, and took the land to create a Jewish country. If Palestine had a Jewish majority, and there was a free election, in which everyone voted, and the majority of the people chose to become Israel, then it would have been different. Most of Israel’s wars were with other Arab countries and not the Palestinians? Levi, Israel has been in a continuous war with the Palestinians since its founding. If not a war, then how would you characterized what was happening between Israel and Fatah for decades, and now Israel and Hamas?

Brad, it’s true that there was no country called Palestine, just Arab land occupied by the British. Indochina was also a region occupied by the French. If the U.N. had given half of Vietnam for the creation of a “Jewish State,” do you think the Vietnamese would not act? Just because European imperialists have the bad habit of occupying other people’s land, and then giving it away to someone else doesn’t mean that it’s acceptable.

Gaza, a few points to consider:

You use the phrase, "Arab Land" quite a bit. I hope you realise the racial / racist implications of that. If you believe in "Arab land" then you cannot blame Israel for wanting to be Jewish. (Should we declare North America and Europe, “White?”)

In your last paragraph you said: "..there was no country called Palestine, just Arab land occupied by the British.." This of course occurred after they defeated the previous occupiers, the Turks, who sided with Germany in WWI. There’s nothing cut and dried about all this and the complexity justifies much of the history. We could also consider that the last century was full of refugees who resettled. There were land swaps (India/Pakistan, Greece/Turkey) and some 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab/Muslim countries. There was no Palestinian country before nor was there any push to establish one between 1948 and 1967 and the Jordanian occupation wasn’t called an occupation.

In this larger context, it is relevant to ask why the Palestinians merit such special and one-sided attention. They could be settled anywhere; maybe in the countries that kicked out their Jews.

The South African example: I’ve been looking at the news from there for a few months and frankly, it’s bad. The ANC is more firmly entrenched than the previous government was, they have racist (anti-White) laws, the country is the most dangerous on earth including war zones and taking White farmers as a group, they are being murdered in a manner that qualifies as genocide. (I don’t say this lightly and it’s not my idea but came from an outside monitor using the technical definitions of genocide. The government is buying White farms to give to Blacks & there are suggestions that they are allowing the murder of these farmers in order to encourage their departure.) Corruption is also rife. My prediction is that it will become a little USSR with the party being everything and everyone else subservient. Meanwhile production capability is being lost at an alarming rate. None of this is yet common knowledge thanks to a lazy, fashion-conscious media but the hand-over of power in South Africa has become an example of what NOT to do to a functioning country.

to gaza. just one small point no one was screaming that the palistinians should have a right to vote when they were under jordan or eygpt in the gaza strip. the reason being as you put very well is not that they care about their indpence but rather that they think its 'arab land'. that being the case their main issue with the fact that their are jews in 'their middle east'. i there by think that there is no room for israelies and the palistinians to live togther under an arab goverment esppcaily after the attacks on jewish families in before israel came into existence, there by israel did not annex the west bank so they wont be citcens with the ability to vote and given the arab mind set it makes alot of sense. and i comapred to the saudies and syrians is i find it ironic that the only arabs rights that people are fighting for in the last 50-60 are the ones that people blaim israel for not any other living in much worse senerio of 'abuse' and i can only think of anti semitisim as the answer.

Brad, what’s “racist” about calling Palestine “Arab land?” The Arabs have lived there for centuries, have established cities, societies, so I don’t see anything wrong with saying that it’s their land. Let’s look at Europe. France is “French Territory.” Spain belongs to Spaniards. It’s only racist if I say that “France is for white French people only. Anybody else who lives there should be oppressed, denied the right to vote, and forced to be 2nd class citizens.” I say no such thing. Palestine has been overwhelmingly Arab for centuries, and also has sizable minority groups, including Jews. The problem is that one of these minority groups (Jews) decided that they want to be in charge and so took over by force. Once again, that land has inhabitants belonging to many different groups. All groups should be given a voice and a vote, and let democracy take its course.

Israel is of course free to be Jewish. It just needs to be Jewish without victimizing other people. Move to a land unoccupied by other people, and establish the Jewish country there. Please don’t be Jewish at other people’s expense. African-Americans are of course free to be black. They just can’t shoot their way into my neighborhood, take over my house, and be black at my expense. True, Palestine has been occupied by many groups over the centuries. The latest and current occupation force happens to be this Jewish minority that has shot its way to power, disenfranchise everyone else, and maintains its control through force of arms. It’s a shame that no one raised an outcry with the other occupying powers, but it’s time we address that oversight. If the Turks are still there, I would also be posting my objections to their presence as well.

Brad, your idea of re-settling the Palestinians is quite interesting. Why don’t they settle in America? We’ll carve up half of the U.S., so they can create a Palestinian state. If a foreign army forces me from my house, I would rather fight to get my home back, than flee somewhere else. When Indochina was annexed into the French empire, the Vietnamese fought to get their country back. They didn’t re-settle in another country. When black South Africans were oppressed by apartheid, they didn’t re-settle in another country. Mandela and the ANC struggled and fought for decades to bring majority-rule back to South Africa. I do agree with you that the ANC has made many mistakes in South Africa. Thank God, apartheid is gone, but the ANC needs to significantly improve. Absolute agreement, from me.

Levi, I don’t think that the Palestinians have any problems living with Jews. They just have a problem with being ruled by Jews, who’s a minority in the land, and they have no voice whatsoever. Those ignorant people just don’t understand how you can have minority-rule in a “democracy.” The attacks on Jewish families occurred due to a gross failure on the part of the British to maintain law and order. They were responsible for Palestine, did nothing, and so extremists ran wild and committed those horrible crimes. I agree with you that the oppression suffered by Arabs under Arab dictatorships has not received the attention it should. Those countries have horrible human rights records and their people are not free. Just keep in mind that many of those regimes are supported by the U.S. Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Jordan, Iran under the Shah, even Iraq in the 80’s, etc… are supported by America.

I enjoyed your website, you should check out the May 15th Prophecy and how accurate it is
@ lastdaywatchers.blogspot.com

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