Rice's Fear of the One-State Solution

but is the US willing to cut funding to ISR in order to pressure the IDF to stop guarding the settlers? why doesnt the US impose sanctions on Israel? olmert refuses to step in, so why dont they make a backroom deal so he looks like he doesnt have a choice? olmert can blame the US, the settlers get the boot, the Palestinians get their land back and an end to the occupation... i know this is an over-simplification but if Condi is serious, she can take a giant step in ending the settlers expansion and quite possibly reverse their occupation in the West Bank.

Scott -- Two interesting perspectives. First, David Kimche (hardly a leftist) in the Jerusalem Post on October 19, saying the same thing as Sec. Rice -- Israel cannot afford to let the window close on a two state solution.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1192380595064

Next, Mamoun Fandy in today's Asharq al-Awsat -- an article entitled "Say 'No' to Peace!" Dr. Fundy says, "If I were an Israeli Prime Minster, I would not see any strategic value in a settlement with the Palestinians alone. Israel has managed to deal with the Palestinians in terms of conflict management for the last fifty years and is ready to mange that conflict for fifty more." He also recognizes that no agreement with the Palestinians can give the Israelis what they want, which is an end to the Qassams. He argues that only a pan-Arab settlement, in which presumably Israel would give the Golan back to Syria in exchange for an end to its patronage of Hamas and Hezbollah, and for Arab isolation of Iran, offers any strategic benefit to Israel or to the US.
http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=10670

Asbestos: Many thanks for these. I think something that has been lost in the drama of the daily headlines is how far Israeli thinking has gone in the last 15 years on the question of Palestine. That is one of the things that keeps me hoping that with some smart diplomacy something useful can be achieved. I've just spent a few days in Dubai--reminded how tragic it is that the heart of the Middle East is still stuck in the cycle of violence while the Gulf states are busy building new cities. Some of the building is being done by Lebanese who bailed out after the summer '06 war.

I personally don't think a two state solution will work. There is too much animosity and too much lack of control over the common people, and I think the distrust and intolerance on both sides is so entrenched that it will persist even after a two state solution is implemented and will simply cause conflict between two distinctly different sovereign states.

When the UN debated solutions to the Israeli-Palesitian problem--the 1947 parition plan being one of the ideas discussed--a study group commission by the US State Department that had traveled throughout Palestine talking to the people and conducting research, recommented a single, integrated state as the best solution.

I think one can draw parallels between the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the historical conflict between blacks and whites in America. The solution to segregation in America was forced integration of the children, who tend to often overlook such trivialities as skin color and origins, and rightfully so. While pockets of racim and prejudice between blacks and whites still persist in the US, each generation has been more tolerant than the last, and the most tolerant are those that grew up among diversity.

Does no one think this will ultimately have to happen in the Middle East? Hatred and violence aren't confined to lines on a map; they will still cross the borders of a two state solution.

I also think that a ONE-STATE solution is the only choice. That area comprising of modern Israel-The West Bank-Gaza had people of many faiths living there: Jews, Christians, Muslims. What sense does it make to craft a "solution" where Jews get the lion's share of the land and the Palestinan (Muslims) majority get what's left? That would make no sense.

What's required here is that people (Jews, Americans, and Western Europe) giving up on the racist obsession of having a "Jewish State." This idea of creating a country with the exclusive purpose of one particular race dominating all the other peoples of that area is primitive, unjust, and as we've seen for decades, leads to nothing but warfare and hatred.

The right thing to do: One State built on democratic principles, all inhabitants can vote. If a certain minority race can no longer dominate all the other races, then so be it.

Scott -- The Gulf States are in fact building new cities, but while they are diversifying their economies they are still the beneficiaries of a lot of oil wealth as well as a lack of external enemies. Israel, without any oil, and despite the ongoing "cycle of violence", is building an awful lot, too -- including in other countries. Here's a link that details some recent Israeli foreign real estate investments and construction contracts. Just as a for instance:

"Oct. 18, 2007 -- Israeli Danya Cebus's Romania based subsidiary has won a €158M contract to be the chief contractor for the Cotroceni Park Mall in Bucharest. The 200,000-square meter mall is owned by sister company of Danya Cebus, Africa-Israel Properties, through AFI Europe together with its partner US investment company New Century Holdings Capital." For the metrically challenged, 200,000 square meters is about 2.1 million square feet, about half the size of the Mall of America in Minnesota.

http://www.export.gov.il/eng/SubIndex.asp?CategoryID=180

Israel's GDP grew by 5.1% in 2006 despite the Lebanon war, and is on target to grow another 5% in 2007. Depending on who's doing the measuring, Israel's median per capita GDP levels are approaching Western Europe's. And no, that's not because the US props up its economy. Direct economic aid from the US in 2007 will be $120 million, less than .1% of GDP. (Gabistan's post reflects a common Arab/Muslim misperception -- that Israel is a mere economic client of the US, and that the US could therefore change Israeli policies toward the Palestinians by threatening to withdraw aid. Not remotely close to true -- Israel can "guard the settlers", as she puts it, without anyone's help, thank you very much.)

And that, folks, is why the talk of a unitary state between the Med and the Jordan is piffle. Leaving aside the absurd suggestion that Jewish security needs could be adequately addressed (a polite way of saying that Hamas types would massacre Jews while we wait for the the day predicted by Nathan, when ebony and ivory live together in perfect harmony, just like in the States), what possible incentive could a wealthy, post-industrial, internationally-oriented economy have to integrate a poor, pre-industrial, locally-oriented one? In 1947, the whole place was pretty much an undifferentiated patchwork of dust, olive groves, and orange groves, with the occasional goat. It ain't anymore. West Germany had historical and cultural ties to East Germany, and that integration was painful and very expensive. The Nathans of the world may believe that Israel will one day commit cultural suicide, but economic suicide as well? Not the Jews!

David Kimche is not an idiot, and his article appeared in the English language Post for a reason. The Territories are a millstone around Israel's neck. Sharon knew it, Olmert knows it, and so does the majority of the Israeli population. Kimche and Rice want to make sure that Israel's supporters in the US know it, too. Whatever the dead-enders on the Israeli (and US) right and the starry-eyed international left may think (and when I say starry-eyed, it is because I am willing to assume that Nathan and his friends are genuinely well-meaning, if deluded), Israel will ultimately act in its own best interests and cut the rope.

"The right thing to do: One State built on democratic principles, all inhabitants can vote. If a certain minority race can no longer dominate all the other races, then so be it."

Scary...disagree, two states is the way to go.

Posted by Asbestos
October 26, 2007

Israel would disappear tomorrow if the US even whispered that it was considering withdrawing it's support of Israel.

And Israel won't reform until that support is withdrawn or threatened.

As for Israel's economic condition and I suggest you see the latest CIA report on countries. Without US aid, mostly in the form of strongarming other ME countries as they did to Egypt over their cotton imports to the US requiring Israeli materials be used in Egyptian imprts to the US, legistating favorable trade deals for Israel, allowing US pension funds to be invested in Israel industry, and so on and so forth.

You really are very uneducated on the details of how the Israeli industrial base and economy has been created by the US. And on the fact that according to the latest congressional required report on Israel by the state Department and CIA Israel still isn't a self supporting nation.

Renfro why don't you crawl back under the rock you came out from under you anti-semitic piece of crap!

Renfro -- Just one point to show how misguided you are -- it is not accurate to say that the US "strongarmed" Egypt to use Israel cotton in their exports to the US. Rather, under the Qualifying Industrial Zone free trade agreement, the U.S. authorizes duty-free entry of goods into the U.S. for industrial products manufactured jointly by Israel and Egypt in certain specified zones within Egypt. Under the December 2004 agreement, Egypt must incorporate a minimum of 10.5% (used to be 11.7%) Israeli output into its production in order to receive customs tax exemptions in the United States. In other words, we bribe both Egypt and Israel in the interests of Middle East peace -- do a little business together, and we'll give you a tax break. Most of the qualifying products (89%) are clothing that incorporates Israeli cotton.

How much of a benefit is this to Israel? My best estimate is that total exports from Israel to Egypt in 2006 were about $120 million (if anyone has better figures, please let me know). Not all of this is to QIZ's, but let's guess $100 million was. Sounds like a lot of money, until you realize that Israel's total exports in 2006 were north of $42 billion. $100 million is a drop in the bucket. Egyptians benefit, too, obviously -- textile wages in QIZ's are about 25% higher than outside of them.

How much has this cost the US? Again, not a lot. There were already a number of countries whose textile exports to the US were duty free (e.g. Mexico). Giving a tax advantage to some Egyptian products means that the marginal increase in imports to the US is most likely to displace other non-dutied imports, and not higher-priced taxed imports.

Asbestos, while I agree that a one state solution is highly unlikely, why assume it would be the Hamas types massacring the Jews in the ensuing civil war? There's nothing in the history that suggests massacres only flow in one direction or that only one side has legitimate security needs. Quite the contrary, in fact.

"West Germany had historical and cultural ties to East Germany, and that integration was painful and very expensive."

Are you saying East and West Germany shouldn't have been integrated? It may have been painful and expensive, but the benifits of double the consumer base have certainly exceeded the costs.

I never suggested tearing down the wall and just seeing what happens. Any kind of integration in the Middle East will need to be slow. It's been 50 years since America integrated its schools, and there are still pockets of economic segregation that persist.

However, on the question of whether or not Israel can benefit from an integrated society, you must look at the long term, and you must look at other integrated and non-integrated nations. Empires have collapsed under the weight of ethnic strife, and you see the same type of conflict in the Middle East, South America, Eastern Europe, and Asia, but there is one place where this conflict has noticably been absent--the US. If there is anything the US can teach the world, it is how to build a successful INTEGRATED society. The US is the ONLY democracy that has succeeded at this (and it hasn't been easy), and the US has grown into the worlds greatest superpower because of it.

The fact that you refer to an integrated Palestinian and Israeli state as "cultural suicide" is exactly the type of xenophobia that fuels this conflict. The entire Middle East places culture and religious ties well above any kind of nationalism. The Shiite Sunni divide in Iraq is one consequence of this ethnic and religious centrism, as is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and these types of conflicts don't go away if you build a wall or draw a new border--in fact, it gets worse. It festers. And then it explodes like the Balkans.

Israel clearly wants those territories. The Israeli settlers clearly want those territories. Israel's economy needs a steady supply of bright young minds to fuel her technology and service based economy. Her economy also needs a strong consumer class.

Integration would be slow. It would be painful. But its a permanent solution, and hundreds of years from now it will have occured naturally whether Israel likes it or not (culture has a way of leaking across borders). The situation in the Middle East is not sustainable, and I don't think a two state solution is either.

I don't agree that a one-state solution is a trivial idea, but I do agree that it won't happen any time soon; The Israelis and the Palestinians are too stubborn and proud. Hopefully the next few generations will be different.

Nathan -- Without a great deal of time to respond, I'll just say that 1. Of course I'm not against German reunification. But the costs were enormous, and East Germany was closer to West Germany economically than the Palestinian areas are to Israel. 2. You are right that the settlers want the territories. You are wrong that Israel as a whole wants them. On the contrary -- Olmert was elected to follow through on Sharon's promise to get rid of them unilaterally. Israel may be reconsidering the unilateral part, but not the basic goal of separation. 3. Israel does not need any additional bright young Palestinians (although there are certainly plenty of them) -- it has plenty of its own smart, educated young people, especially thanks to the recent Russian immigrants. Rising anti-Semitism in France and Great Britain auger for additional immigration from those advanced, well-educated countries, as well. Palestinians could use access to Israeli employment and educational opportunities, but they don't really have anything economic to offer in return. Israel already has all the laborers it needs (one of the unfortunate results of the conflict for the Palestinians is that it forced Israel to find new outside sources of cheap labor), and a well-developed market, both internal and external, for its goods and services.

For what it's worth, I am actually hopeful that a settlement will be reached, and that several generations latter Israel and a Palestinian state will enjoy mutually beneficial relations. But these two people, after all that has happened between them, need two states. In this regard, it is interesting that the same Palestinians who insist on a "right of return" to Israel also want their future state to be Judenfrei.

Israel's economy has grown in large part to an influx of foreign investment and to the recent immigration of many young, educated Jews from Russia. The fact of the matter is that Israel cannot rely on Jewish immigration forever. It's a simple question of sustainability. I don't think the current situation is sustainable, and I don't think the two state solution is sustainable either. Israel's territory is too small (and doesn't have enough natural resources) to have an economy based on anything other than technology and service (manufacturing currently accounts for 20% but that sector is not expanding), and that requires a constant stream of educated workers and a strong base of service consumers (the market for service exports is not as well developed as the market for goods). A weak Palestinian state next to Israel will only cause more problems, and yes, the Palestinian state would remain weak because their education system is not adequate to support a high skilled economy and the state will need to rely on either a) Israel's education system (not going to happen with a two state solution) b) Foreign immigration (not there either) c) Neighboring Arab eduction systems (not much better) or d) low skilled labor and an agrarian economy like many of the other poor Middle Eastern nations, resulting in a weak state. Remember, its not so much poverty itself that causes conflict and illegal immigration, but a high contrast of wealth in limited space (note South Africa's surging violent crime rate because of massively high income inequality). It is in Israel's and the Palestinian's best interests to foster as much co-operation as possible while balancing security concerns.

I fear that once a two state solution is achieved (if it ever is), the benefactors and facilitators will announce their obligations are finished and leave the newly created Palestinian state in the dark. The US has a habit of pledging support and then not delivering, and it always backfires.

How is a Two-State deal going to work?

1 - Unjust solution. Muslim majority ended up with less land than the Jewish minority.

2 - How to define the 2 states? Unilateral border imposed by Israel won't work. Israel walked away from Gaza, which became Hamas headquarters. Israel walked away from Southern Lebanon, which became kidnapping paradise for Hezbollah. To end a war, both parties have to agree to stop.

3 - Israel keeps the status quo. Long term situation is probably going to result in Israel losing the "Battle of the Womb."

4 - All 3 participants are very weak. Can't make painful concessions needed for 2 states. Bush (defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan). Ohmert (defeat in Lebanon). Abbas (lost Gaza to Hamas).

Until quite recently, I used to consider the one-state solution as pie-in the sky or (like Condi) something to be mentioned as a way of focusing attention and urgency.

Until I read Virginia Tilley's "The One-State Solution" (2005).

It is easily one of the best books on the Middle East to be published in recent years both in its analysis and its exposition. Even if you don't expect to be convinced, this is an absolute must-read.

Please understand everyone that a two state solution between Israel and their Palestinian neighbors will not work because of the mindset of the Palestinian and Arabs in general. This is where politicians and many others are getting it wrong. They are trying to democratize a particular people (the Palestinians) who know nothing, NOTHING, about democracy! Our leadership has made this mistake in Iraq, Afghanistan, and they are doing it again with Israel’s neighbors. Neighbors who are determined upon not only the destruction of Israel but anyone else the Koran considers “infidels”.

By the way, if you are not a Muslim that means you!

I know this from personal experience. I am 52 years of age, but years ago I studied to become a Muslim during my early twenties. Although I come from a Southern Baptist upbringing I nearly converted to Islam because at the time I thought that it was a “cool” thing to do. And for nearly 2 years I studied the Koran, and in my learning I discovered that Muslims are “commanded” by Mohammad NOT to make friends with crusaders (Christians) and Jews, but to “strike” them on the neck and lay ambush for them. In the past few years we have see lots of “striking” or beheading, have we not? So when you see “good” Muslims blowing up other Muslims and non-Muslims it is because it is inbred into them.

And please don’t think that I consider all Muslims as terrorist. It is unfortunate, however, that more than 90% of the terrorist activities we are seeing today were committed by Muslims. And although there are those out there who claim to be Christians who have committed horrible crimes against humanity they have done it disrespect to what the Bible teaches which is to love even your enemy. However, when Muslims commit the same horrible acts it is in accordance to what is taught in the Koran. If someone doesn’t believe me I will be glad to provide them with the many verses in the Koran to back my claim.

Although the United States has provided Israel with financial support believe me when I say that we have provided far more to the Palestinians. And not only the US of A but the European Union and many other nations that refuse to have anything to do with Israel. And yet in spite of it all Israel has blossomed like a rose while the Palestinians and most of the Arab nations are still living in the dust. This has nothing to do with Israel “stealing” land from the Palestinians, but it is due to the Palestinian and Arab leadership, mindset, beliefs and core values. And yet there is so much that the Palestinians and other Arabs could learn from Israel, and I list just a few of Israel’s accomplishments below:

1. The scientific technology employed by NASA to beam video images from its Mars land-rover back to Earth was developed by two Israelis.

2. Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

3. Israelis have developed very advanced hydrology technology that allows crops to grow in the most arid conditions.

4. The X-Hawk rotor-less helicopter, the first helicopter to have the capability to move in tight spaces, is now in development in Israel.

5. The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli branch of Motorola.

6. Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel.

7. The Pentium MMX chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

8. Voice mail technology was also developed in Israel.

9. The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.

10. Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East.

11. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the United Kingdom.

12. Twenty-four per cent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees, ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland and 12 per cent hold advanced degrees.

13. In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews (Operation Solomon) at risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel.

14. The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries. The average tree is about 18-20 feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a year. Israeli trees are now yielding about 400 pounds a year and are short enough to be harvested from the ground or a short ladder.

These are not bad accomplishments for a tiny nation comprising less that 1% of land in the Middle East, and who will be celebrating only their 60th birthday in May 2008. And who owns the other 99% of the land? Their Arab neighbors of course! However, in their defense, the Palestinians are well known for deploying one well known invention…

The Kassam rocket! Some achievement, right?

Please let it be known that Israel never stole any land from anyone! And yes, there was land designated to the Palestinian people. It was called “Trans Jordan”. Today it is simply known as Jordan.

Also let it be known that the Palestinian Charter calls for the destruction of Israel. And Hamas has already stated on numerous occasions that they “will not” recognize Israel under any conditions – whether there is a one or two state solution, it doesn’t matter. Also, you will not find on any Arab map in the Middle East any land called Israel. And even today all Palestinian children are taught from grade school to graduation that ALL Jews derived from monkeys and pigs. Nor will you find Jews living freely and openly with equal rights in any Arab nation. But in Israel Arabs live and have the same rights as their Jewish neighbors. I have been there and seen it. And yet the United States and other nations are trying to persuade Israel to concede more land, and maybe even Jerusalem, to appease neighbors bent on their destruction!

Incredible.

Please keep in mind that these are the same Palestinians and Arab neighbors who celebrated 9/11 by singing and dancing in the streets and throwing candy to children, just in case anyone has forgotten. Yet it was Israel who was one of the first nations to offer condolences and support after this devastating attack.

As a Christian it is my obligation to tell the truth in the defense of the Nation of Israel. For although Judaism can survive without Christianity, Christianity cannot exist without it Jewish roots. We owe a debt of gratitude to this tiny “Jewish” nation, and trying to convince Israel to concede more land to neighbors bent upon their destruction, or to push for a two state solution, would be asking to put a “terrorist state” right next to the only true democratic nation in the Middle East, thus endangering the very existence of the Nation of Israel.

Jimmy, are you sure you were reading the Koran? Sounds like you picked up Mein Kampf by mistake. Check the title again, before posting.

Jimmy, every religion is vulnerable to being hijacked by political nuts. In the Middle Ages, Christianity was used to justify the Crusades. Good Christians also didn't see anything wrong with slavery, Jim Crow oppression, etc... Today, we have a devout Christian in the White House who had absolutely no problem lying in way into Iraq. I have Muslim friends and so far haven't been beheaded (not even once) or ambushed yet.

Jimmy, the reason the Palestians don't understand democracy is that they have been too busy dying at the hands of Israeli aggression. It's hard to fully grasp the wonders of democracy when Israeli tanks are bulldozing your refugee camp, your parents are being gunned down by Israeli troops, your children are starving to death, and the list goes on and on.

Jimmy, if you don't like the Palestinians "living in the dust," then maybe you ought to tell the IDF to stop razing their refugee camps into the ground. Despite decades of genocidal terror by Israel, the Palestinian people, God Bless Them, still manage to survive.

Israeli achievements? I'm sure white South Africans achieved great things too. Problem was that they did it on the broken backs, tears, and blood of those who had the misfortune of living under their boots.

The "only democractic nation in the Middle East." If the U.S. didn't support brutal thugs like Mubarak (Egypt), al Saud gang (Saudi Arabia), al Sabah gang (Kuwait), Hussein dynasty (Jordan), etc.... then maybe there would me more democracies.

Trans Jordan? What's that? Wasn't that the deranged fantasy land distribution scheme where European colonialist powers tried to divide up land that DID NOT belong to them? Let's just give this piece of land to the Jews. Doesn't really matter if the land belongs to us, let's just give it to somebody? I'm still shocked that they didn't also give India to the Kurds, or perhaps Cambodia to the Gypsies! Weren't the Gypsies also oppressed by Germans as well?

Whatever you're reading, check the title first.

Hello “Two States,” and thank you for your comments which I look forward to answering.

First of all let me ask you have you read the Koran or any parts of it? If you had you would definitely know the difference between it and Hitler’s Mein Kampf or “My Struggle”. The following are just some of the verses from the Koran that drove me away from converting to Islam:

"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers." The Table (5) #51.

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are “ruthless” to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." Victory 48:29

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They [the unbelievers] will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal." The Imrans 3:118

"Prophet “make war” on the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate"
Sovereignity (66) #9

"When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take a ransom from them, until War has laid down her burdens." Muhammad (47) #4

"When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful." Repentance (9) #5.

"Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and his apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." Repentance (9) #28

"Therefore do not falter or sue [or call] for peace when you have gained the upper hand" Mohammad (47) #34

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme" The Spoils 8:~40

Please understand, Two States, that for the purpose of not writing a book I’ve only provide you with a few of the verses that prevented me from converting Islam. These and others have even driven others from Islam, thus risking their lives. According to Islam, the Shari'a (God's Law) is the only acceptable form of political Rule and Islam the only acceptable religion in the eyes of God. There is no democracy in Islam – NONE! Even your brother or father is not your friend if he chooses a different religion. And Jews and Christians are collectively shunned. Muslims are enjoined to be ruthless to the unbelievers, as you have read from the verses above.

So tell me, Two States, after reading these verses, where is the tolerance?

As I mention earlier, there are some who have used the Bible to justify their evil and wrong doings. The Crusades, as you pointed out, is just one example. But as I also mentioned earlier that those who do these things are proving that they have no part of the body of Christ because they are acting contrary to what the Bible says, for the Bible says that we are to love one another and even our enemies. We are also commanded to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you!” However, those who are committed to Islam and commit monstrosities are acting in accordance to Islamic teachings, as you have just read above.

It amazes me how you or anyone can contribute the lifestyle and conditions of the Palestinians to anything the IDF is doing or has done! Surely you have not done your research, nor have you visited the country of which we are speaking. My wife and I have traveled from one end of Israel to the other and during this time we felt nothing but peace. I have a great deal of respect for the Jewish people and the Nation of Israel for nowhere will you find Jews chanting war through the streets, throwing stones at you and your vehicle, or threaten to murder you and your family simply because you refuse to submit to their beliefs of Islam, but you will find a people determined upon peace and prosperity. By the way, Islam means, to “submit.”

Israel has even pulled out of portions of land called the Gaza and gave this to the Palestinian people in order to hopefully have peace and to stem the flow of missiles coming from the Palestinian territories. All this accomplished was bringing the missiles a bit closer to Israel, and to give Hamas a greater advantage in hope to eliminate their Jewish enemies.

However, I dare you, Two States, to cross into any of the Palestinian territories. There have been many who believe as you do who have actually gone over to Gaza to provide them support and to show that they are sympathetic to their cause. Many who did have actually been kidnapped for ransom, or killed. Thinking about visiting?

Somehow you skipped over explaining to me how little bitty Israel has outperformed every one of it Arabs neighbors in achievements that have benefited the world. Instead you jumped head first into a discussion on apartheid, something of which you obviously have very little knowledge of. So let’s look at the definition of the word apartheid, which is “A rigid policy of segregation of the nonwhite population as practiced in the Republic of South Africa.” The first to use this analogy with Israel were actually Arabs. It’s amazing how others like yourself have picked it up. The word apartheid actually means “separateness” or “apartness,” which definitely does not describe Israel because of the Israeli Arabs who are living in Israel who have the same rights as Israeli Jews (Again, I’ve been there and seen it for myself, so I can speak of it). The apartheid imposed by former African President F.W. de Klerk did not allow this between the whites and blacks in Africa in his day.

The “State of Israel” was created in a peaceful and legal process by the United Nations. The UN partition plan (resolution #181, November 29, 1947) created two states: the State of Israel for the Jews, and the State of Palestine for the Arabs. The Arab refugees were people who fled because of the “war that the Arab states started.” Please note this – Israel NEVER started the war! The rulers of eight Arab countries whose populations vastly outnumbered the Jews initiated the war with simultaneous invasions of the newly created State of Israel on three fronts. Nascent Israel begged for peace and offered friendship and cooperation to its neighbors. The Arabs rejected this offer and answered it with a war of annihilation against the Jews, which fortunately failed. To this day, the Arab states and the Palestinians refer to the failure of their aggression and the survival of Israel as the Nakhba – the catastrophe.

Had there been no Arab aggression, no war, no invasion by Arab armies whose intent was avowedly genocidal, not only would there have been no Arab refugees, but there would have been a state of Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza since 1948 – thus resolving this current issue of a two state solution. It should be completely obvious to any reasonable and fair-minded observer of this history, therefore, that it was not the creation of the State of Israel that caused the Arab refugee problem, nor was it Israel that obstructed its solution. On the contrary, the Arab refugee problem was the direct result of the aggression of the Arab states, and their refusal after failing to obliterate Israel to sign a formal peace, or to take care of the refugees who remained outside Israel’s borders.

In reality, Palestinians who fled Israel in 1948 and are still alive have no legal right to return to Israel, because the Arab leadership representing them (Arab nations until 1993, and since then the Palestinian Authority) are still, de jure and de facto at war with Israel; and these refugees, therefore, are still potential hostiles. International law does not require a country at war to commit suicide by allowing the entry of hundreds of thousands of a potentially hostile population. In the context of a peace treaty, in 1949, the Arab refugees could have taken advantage of Israel’s offer; but their leadership refused.

In conclusion, Two States, let me say that whether there will or will not be a two state solution the Jews will NEVER be pushed out of Israel by anyone ever again, and the Bible is very clear on this. Without turning this into a Bible study, of which I am more than able to do, let me say that just as it was foretold of the Jewish people’s expulsion from Israel the Bible is also very clear in several scriptures of their return.

"Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them Into their own land: and I will make them ONE NATION in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them ALL and they shall be No MORE two nations, neither shall they be divided Into two kingdoms any more at all." Ezek. 37:15-22.

Also, in the book of Ezekiel (chapters 36 through 38) God not only speaks of the restoration of the Jews to the land of Israel, but He also speaks of His wrath and anger against the people and nations who are trying to take the land away from the Jews. Some nations He even call by name, such as Persia (Iran), Ethiopia and Libya. Hopefully one of these names in particular (Iran) is sounding bells in your head from today’s headlines. He even goes as far to state his “burning jealousy” against ALL of Edom, which refers to the Arab descendents from Esau.

I could go on, but for the sake of time I will choose not to. I would, however, recommend that you research reading material and online documents surrounding the birth of Israel and study to show yourself approved before making statements that are unsupported or untrue. And the Bible is a great place to start.

Jimmy, I appreciate the Koranic verses. Given the fact that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful law abiding people across this globe, they must be reading a different version of the Koran from yours. It seems that only you and al-Quaeda possess this violent copy. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc... all received authorizations from the Church, including the Pope and other highly ranking Christian clerics. I bet they found quite a few passages in the Bible to justify their actions.

Jimmy, the Palestinian territories are indeed violent dangerous places, just like the black townships of South Africa during apartheid. They are this way because of the hopelessness and oppression that the native population was enduring. Black South Africans weren't evil monsters, and neither are the Palestinians. Stop the oppression, give people hope, and you'll be amazed at how quickly things changed. Chanting for war? Jews don't have to do this. They have the IDF and its rockets, artillery, and tanks to do the chanting for them.

Israel outperforming who in the Middle East? Is life in Israel better than it is in Dubai, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, etc...? Can this "outperformance" be sustained without billions of dollars in U.S. aid? Let's just assume that Israel is by far the greatest economy/military in the Middle East. So what? Apartheid South Africa was also the most powerful nation in Africa. Does not justify apartheid, white minority rule, violence against blacks. Sorry!

Israeli Arabs? What about them? Before the Civil Rights movement in the U.S., there were also black doctors, lawyers, etc.. in America who enjoy high standards of living. What about all the other black Americans who were being lynched, oppressed, terrorized in the country?

The creation of Israel was a legal and peaceful process? Are you serious? How can the UN just go and distribute land that doesn't belong to it? Does the UN own Palestine? It comes down to European colonialists, being shocked by the Holocaust, and decided to arbitrarily give away other people's land to Jews. The Muslim inhabitants who have lived there for centuries had no say whatsoever in the process. Of course, they will attack. If the UN gives away Calcutta to Jews, then all Indians would also attack.

Jimmy, I do agree that Jews won't be pushed out of Israel. They just have to accept the fact that they are a minority in that land, submit to the democratic process, and relinquish Jewish Minority Rule. They will live there as a minority and citizens of the new country. White Boers did it and so can the Jews.

Scott, you said:

"Rice is basically warning that trends may be moving in favor of Hamas, the prime advocate of a one-state solution to the problem."

I've never read such a benign interpretation of Hamas's charter before. Where in the Hamas charter does it "advocate" for a "one state solution"?

And didn't the Palestinians vote Hamas in by a majority? Trends have been moving in favor of Hamas for a long time.

"How far Israeli thinking has gone in the last 15 years on the question of Palestine."

Has Arab thinking left you just as optimistic? I'm curious.

Jimmy, I suggest you read this post:

http://time-blog.com/middle_east/2007/09/news_flash_muslim_denounces_te.html

Pay particular attention to quotes such as:

“Whosoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the Earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the lives of all mankind.” [Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 32]

You said:

"Please note this – Israel NEVER started the war! The rulers of eight Arab countries whose populations vastly outnumbered the Jews initiated the war with simultaneous invasions of the newly created State of Israel on three fronts. Nascent Israel begged for peace and offered friendship and cooperation to its neighbors."

It amazes me how much history has been distorted just to keep Israel's hands clean of blood. It's been well documented that Jewish Zionists intended to take Palestine for their own, no matter who was in the way, and if Arab's had to be displaced or beaten in order to unify Jerusalem under Jewish rule, so be it. When accepting a British plan for the partition of Palestine, David Ben-Gurion said: "The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan: one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them."

As the Arab's grew fearful of increasing Jewish immigration to Palestine, they reacted with violence against Jews. Those who overlooked the Zionists goals of creating the Jewish National Homeland in Arab territory claimed the Arabs were the aggressors, but Ben-Gurion recognized the reality of the conflict and he said: "When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves ---- that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves. ... But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves."

If you really think Israel did not want a war with the Arab's you need to read a history book not written by Zionists. Israel's ultimate goal has always been the goal of Zionism--the creation of a Jewish National Homeland in Palestine--and if Israel ever agreed to a partition or peace with the Arabs, it would only be as a means to fulfill the Zionist goals of a homeland "not as a Jewish State in Palestine, but Palestine as a Jewish State". Ben-Gurion affirmed his desire to use peace and partition as a tool soon after the UN approved the 1947 partition plan: "It is we who will decide the fate of Palestine. We cannot agree to any sort of Trusteeship, permanent or temporary. The Jewish State exists because we defend it." Ben-Gurion was not afraid of a war with the Arabs, and might have even desired one, as he said: "The war will give us the land. The concept of 'ours' and 'not ours' are only concepts for peacetime, and during war they lose all their meaning." Many people in Israel and the Israeli government don't give a sh*t about the Arabs and want to take that land for themselves.

And as for apartheid, the Palestinians are under Israeli occupation and Israeli control yet are not afforded access to the Israeli judicial system or government; do not have the freedom to immigrate into Israel; have their electricity, their freedom of movement, and their access to hospitals restricted or cut off completely by separation barriers; have tax revenues withheld at Israel's discretion; are subjected to unlawful detainment without due process; and are harassed, beaten, or killed by IDF soldiers and Israeli settlers. This is not segregation or apartheid? Israel maintains that all of these restrictions are necessary to protect Israeli citizens from Palestinian terror, but Palestinian terror is fueled by the terrible conditions in the territories which is only made worse by those Israeli actions! Does this make sense to you?

And you say the two state solution will never work because of the Arabs...You're delusional man.

I am sorry, Two States. Forgive me for I thought that I was speaking to someone who wanted to hear the truth!

I have presented to you historical information from inserts posted by the United Nations and other sources qualifying the existence of the State of Israel. But it is now obvious to me that you never wished to hear or read the truth, and only the truth will set you free.

Also, the verse you just provided from the Koran does not disqualify all of the other verses of hate, also from the Koran, that I provided earlier. In fact, it gives the impression that the writer himself was delusional. Therefore, so are his followers. Again you have chosen not to comment on those; thus again avoiding the truth.

It is also obvious that you are anti-semitic, which explains why your mind has been closed to what I have been trying to say, but most importantly, to the documented prove, both secular and biblical, that I've provided. Therefore the only thing I can do for you at this time is pray for you for it is obvious that you are in need of salvation.

The world cannot continue to hate Israel and expect the blessings of God. My wife and I are Christian Zionist and we strongly support the Nation of Israel because (1) God said that He would "bless those who bless Israel, and those that curse Israel He would curse," and (2) because we have seeing scriptural proof of Israel's existence everyday.

Do a bit of research and you will see that every dominate nation that has come up against Israel has been brought low to the dust. This can be seen from the Roman empire to today's Islamic nations. From every war that was waged by Arab nations against Israel it appears that Israel has "always" come through victorious. Even during the Six Day War where Israel was extremely outnumbered several times over by five Arab nations, God once again gave them victory "in six days!" No other nation in the world has done this.

After more then 2000 years of Arab and other nations domination and desolation, Israel has once again blossomed like a rose. However, this only happened after the Jews were returned to Israel as it was prophesied in scripture.

It is written that "People are destroyed for lack of knowledge." Please, Two States, don't continue to be one of them.

Arab nations hate Israel so much because to have a Jewish nation in their mist, and one that is prospering so greatly, is a slap in their faces. But I say again, and you will continue to see this truth - the Jewish people will never again be removed from Israel, and every nation that fights against it, be it Muslim or non-Muslim, fights against God Himself.

I will not return to these comments again so I won't have the please of reading any additional comments you may post. But at least I know that a seed has been planted.

Have a good day!

"I will not return to these comments again so I won't have the please of reading any additional comments you may post."

At least I won't have to try to argue with a religious nut anymore...and your predictable anti-semitic accusation won't stifle my criticisms of Israel, nice try.

I'd like to thank you though, Jimmy, because I've heard about those Israelis who truly believe they are the chosen people, but I've never encountered one--all of my friends are a bit too intelligent and rational. I've always given people like you the benifit of the doubt when it comes to treatment of Palestinians because, and lets be honest here, sometimes it's hard to show restraint when an Arab blew up your house with a Qassam rocket. But after reading what you have to say about Israel, I'm not so sure anymore. If all the Israeli settlers think like you, then it's painfully clear the fanaticism has striken both sides.

It's sad how each of these quotes of your's is the same philosophy of arrogance, intolerance, and violence that you deride Islam for advocating:

"Do a bit of research and you will see that every dominate nation that has come up against Israel has been brought low to the dust."

"God said that He would 'bless those who bless Israel, and those that curse Israel He would curse'"

"the Jewish people will never again be removed from Israel, and every nation that fights against it, be it Muslim or non-Muslim, fights against God Himself."

If God condones the killing of innocents, then he isn't any kind of God I'm willing to follow, and certainly not blindly like yourself. God gave you a brain, Jimmy, and presumably he gave you a heart--I think that means he wants you to use them.

So next time you come here, try not to leave your rational, tolerant side behind.

David:

Thanks for your comment. Here's a reply:

"I've never read such a benign interpretation of Hamas's charter before. Where in the Hamas charter does it "advocate" for a "one state solution"?"

I'm trying to be analytical here and will leave the polemics to others. Hamas does not accept the state of israel and is working to eliminate it. i'm not sure we can say hamas has a strategy to do that, but what is clear is that they want one state within palestine's historic (i.e. mandate) boders. hamas has suggested it would accept a hudna, or long term truce, so just as fatah evolved its thinking over the years, i think it is possible that hamas may well do so as well. until now, they only want one state. i also believe that hamas would become marginalized so far as the israeli issue is concerned if fatah were able to negotiate an honorable peace agreement supported by the ara world and the international community. no deal will satisfy all palestinians (or israelis, of course), but something that truly gives palestinians their rights and dignity (by their definition,not dennis ross's) and a chance to build their own country will isolate palestinians who ally themselves with foreign countries and seek to continue a strategy guaranteed to produce endless conflict and bloodshed.

" Trends have been moving in favor of Hamas for a long time."

you are correct, of course. but i think that trend has a long ways to go before it is irreversible, so i should have added that.

"Has Arab thinking left you just as optimistic? I'm curious."

yes. palestinian thinking evolved tremendously, inpart thanks to realities on the ground like the results of the 6 day war, and that is what makes a two-state solution possible. the 2002 arab peace initiative was a huge further step forward, on paper and in practice. it would have been unimaginable a few years ago to see the saudis, the protectors of the holy mosques and very shy about overt foreign policy moves, leading the arab world's peace efforts. in terms of street opinion, i think arabs generally would be quite content if israel disappeared, but they have widely come to accept israel's existence as a fact of life and are far more focused on their own intern issues--democracy, economy--than on israel. i also believe in time that arabs can come to accept israel as a good neighbor whose rights are completely accepted. history is full of examples where old enemies become good friends. people who talk of the clash of civilizations are looking for reasons to justify the continuation of the conflict.

incidentally, american thinking has also evolved. as much as clinton did to promote the peace process, he hesitated until the end to explicitly endorse an independent palestinian state. now, bush and rice (not to mention olmert and livni!) speak about the need for a palestinian state as if it is the most obvious thing in the world. if ronald reagan and menachem begin has held these views, there would have been a palestinian state 25 years ago.

that leads to a final point about the lack of courage. what i'm not very optimistic about is the will of politicians to act like statesmen and convert the progress and the common ground into the political and psychological breakthroughs needed to lead israelis and palestnians into a compromise that everyone can live with. personally, i think the u.s. has a special responsibility for several reasons: its position as the worlds most influential country; its long, direct involvement in using the conflict to its own geopolitical advantage; and the fact that it is far easier for the u.s., than the israelis or palestinians, to advocate bold proposals. especially nowdays, israeli and palestinian leaders are very weak politically. left to their own devices, we shouldnt be very surprised if they are cautious about moving forward.

Scott:

Thanks for replying.

You said:

"I'm trying to be analytical here and will leave the polemics to others...has suggested it would accept a hudna, or long term truce, so just as fatah evolved its thinking over the years, i think it is possible that hamas may well do so as well. until now, they only want one state. "

I don't think it's polemical to acknowledge Hamas's genocidal philisophy as enshrined in their charter, and preached on the their television stations daily.

I see no evidence by Hamas's actions and rhetoric, including their treatment of Christians in Gaza and their cutting off of Israeli medical supplies last month, that they are planning on moderating in any way. If you have some links that reflect otherwise, I'd be happy to read them. Perhaps I'm wrong.

"palestinians their rights and dignity (by their definition, not dennis ross's"

Not sure why you took a potshot at Ross in this discussion. Perhaps you've been listening to Walt and Mersheimer too much, rather than reading his writings for yourself? He's worked tirelessly to bring peace between Israel and the Palestinians, and was a frequent critic of Ariel Sharon. I've heard him criticize AIPAC as well. He's much more dovish on this issue than Bush is, and has openly slammed the Bush administration for not getting more involved in peacekeeping.

Ross is a negotiator who believes in the importance of the Jewish state's security as much as Palestinian rights. And he's someone who realizes that "their definition", which still includes a "Right of Return" to Israel entire and complete control of the temple mount, needs to be modified for real peace to move forward.

David:

Im not going to defend hamas. i observe that in the 100 or so years of jewish-muslim conflict in this area, there have been a lot of extremist factions on both sides, who have carried out unspeakable deeds that neither you or i would defend. but we've seen a lot of evolution on both sides and i dont rule out we'll see more. palestinians have lived under the physical, emotional, psychological and economic burden of occupation for many decades, and that has helped produce some of the hardened views and murderous actions we hear from hamas and others. if a fair settlement is within reach, i dont think hamas's radicalism will carry the day with the vast majority of palestinians. in case you missed it, a group of washington wisemen/women recently proposed that the u.s. actually participate in starting a "genuine dialogue" hamas, which the u.s. government classifies as a terrorist organization. the group included Zbigniew Brzezinski, Lee H. Hamilton, Carla Hills , Nancy Kassebaum-Baker, Thomas R. Pickering, Brent Scowcroft, Theodore C. Sorensen and Paul Volcker. i think this reflects a view that hamas as an electoral party is a legitimate representative for many palestinians, and that hamas is susceptible to adaptation.

as for ross, i have read ross's account of his peace negotiations. ross had enormous influence over u.s. policy in the 10 years between the end of the gulf war and the outbreak of the intifadeh. this was a golden period of negotiations when this dispute could have and should have been resolved, and american leadership (and responsibility) was crucial. the results--intifadeh, rise of hamas, collapse of fatah, endless violence, separation wall, gaza chaos--speaks for themselves. (by contrast, when jimmy carter was handed an opportunity, he negotiated the landmark camp david peace accords.) ross's explanation for the disaster--that it was all arafat's fault--is not good enough. his self-serving account of his unsuccessful statecraft shows insufficient understanding of palestinian rights or empathy for their plight, which are crucial for any successful negotiator. (ever wonder why it was the norwegians, not ross, who negotiated the oslo accords?) for other views of ross's diplomacy, see Yossi Beilin's The Path to Geneva and Clayton E. Swisher's The Truth About Camp David. now that arafat is dead, abbas is the darling of ross and the bush administration. i'll buy you dinner if abbas accepts less than arafat did and peace breaks out as a result!

Too late but,
"Also, the verse you just provided from the Koran does not disqualify all of the other verses of hate, also from the Koran, that I provided earlier. "
You are correct they don't disqualify the above, for someone to understand the Quran, you need to understand what it's about, the time, the incident that it talks about(that's why God asks us to ask questions when like you don't understand, because after all the All Mighty has intelligence not to be understood without studying) . Each one of the war versus you mentioned were during war times, and God is describing how you should act, and what's forbidden and what's allowed.
When a new natiom is born, the surrounding people work against it, and that's why it mentioned the Jews and Christians, because at the time, they were hateful of the Prophet(PBUH) and his authority(later he was welcomed by the Jews in Medina, and they tried to Kill him after agreeing to peace, so came other versus to ask him to forgive when in power)
I find it very funny, because here you are giving Israeli's all the reasons TO FIGHT, but back then(new system rising) you don't give them the right to defend themselves?They were a minority by the way!
To those who think it's a civilisation clash, read more because YOU ARE WRONG.

One state solutions sure work out great.

Look how well Czechoslovakia is doing. And Yugoslavia too! In Cyprus Greeks and Turks mingle happily together. Same thing in Sri Lanka where the Indian and Tamil populations never tussle at all. And look at the always peaceful area of Northern Ireland. Catholics and Protestants have always gotten along just fine there.

And we all know about Iraq. Shia and Sunni and the Kurdish live peacefully together in a Democratic State with no help at all from outsiders.

Obviously that is all sarcasm.

A one state solution won't be possible in Palestine for decades, if not a century or more.

The best bet is for a forced separation.

A majority Jewish state on one side. An almost completely Muslim state, with a few Christians, and very likely not a single Jew on the other side.

If present trends continue that second state will be a beggar nation for years until it gives up it hatred of the Jews and the west. Once its culture changes it too can make the desert bloom. But until that time it will only be a place of tears and sorrows.

Scott, you said...

"Im not going to defend hamas. i observe that in the 100 or so years of jewish-muslim conflict in this area, there have been a lot of extremist factions on both sides,"

You are defending them by engaging in faulty moral equivocation.

I know of no political party in Israel that has gained popular support by a vast majority of Israelis while advocating suicide bombing and drafting a charter that says all Arabs must be exterminated.

"in case you missed it, a group of washington wisemen/women recently proposed that the u.s. actually participate in starting a "genuine dialogue" hamas, which the u.s. government classifies as a terrorist organization. the group included Zbigniew Brzezinski, Lee H. Hamilton, Carla Hills , Nancy Kassebaum-Baker, Thomas R. Pickering, Brent Scowcroft, Theodore C. Sorensen and Paul Volcker. i think this reflects a view that hamas as an electoral party is a legitimate representative for many palestinians, and that hamas is susceptible to adaptation."

You forgot to mention James Baker.

Look, I'm aware that there is a strategim of thought amongst bureaucrats and people in the CIA who favor this view. It's been there since Israel's inception. I don't see how that makes it any more realistic.

"by contrast, when jimmy carter was handed an opportunity, he negotiated the landmark camp david peace accords.) ross's explanation for the disaster--that it was all arafat's fault--is not good enough. his self-serving account of his unsuccessful statecraft shows insufficient understanding of palestinian rights or empathy for their plight, which are crucial for any successful negotiator."

Jimmy Carter was "handed an opportunity" is exactly correct, considering that much of Camp David had been negotiated beforehand. The situation in Gaza and the West Bank are much more complex, and pose a greater danger to Israel strategically.

And Ross's "self-serving account" happens to be the same account Prince Bandar gave in the New Yorker article that Carter acolytes always ignore. It also happens to be the exact same account that Bill Clinton gave in his autobiography. These people were there.

It's no more self serving than Carter's book.

I have no doubt that mistakes were made by Ross and crew, and I realize that there is a cottage industry of other books and articles that ignore what Bandar or Clinton say and go to great lengths to construct an alternative narrative that demonizes Ross.

I believe the people who actually did the negotiating rather than a Marine "security guard" at the proceedings, who has an interview on the Electronic Intifada that is nothing more than a polemic against Ross.

Still, I'm curious as to why you doubt Clinton and Bandar's version of events...which is really the same as Ross's? Please explain why I should believe third parties - especially Belin (a man with virtually no credilibty who represents a marginalized voice of the Israeli hard-left) or Swisher - over Clinton, Bandar, and Ross?

"i'll buy you dinner if abbas accepts less than arafat did and peace breaks out as a result!"

No thanks, Scott. My friends in the Lobby got it covered.

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