Palestinian Fulbrights Stranded in Gaza

Tim, you said:

"At first I was hesitant to write about Abu Shaban and the others. I wasn’t sure how the Israeli security apparatus would react. All it takes is some easily offended bureaucrat to take this as a personal slight and put the stamp of “National Security” on the students’ dossiers."

Really? It's been all over the news for days.

What made you believe that your blog entry would have any more of an effect than the other coverage?

So why were Abu Shaban, Dawoud and Abed denied passage, and the others allowed out? Those are details that Israeli security officials so far have refused to share with American diplomats, and certainly not with the three Palestinian students. When I met with the trio in Gaza last week at a seaside cafe, they told me they could only hazard a guess. "All three of us went to the Islamic University, and the other four didn't," says Abed. Several professors close to Hamas teach at the Islamic university.Yeah why discriminate against students who want to study.What harm can they do.
How about the rights of the isreali students to study with out getting there heads blow off.

The Mercaz HaRav massacre, also called the Mercaz HaRav shooting, was a shooting attack that occurred on 6 March 2008, in which a lone gunman shot multiple students at the Mercaz HaRav yeshiva, a religious school in Jerusalem, Israel. Eight students and the shooter were killed and ten more were wounded, five of them in serious to critical condition
Why dont they let Arab worker in Isreal,"It's collective punishment" Answer the isrealis do let them in and then get there heads blown off.
The attacker, Alaa Abu Dhein, age 26, from the Arab neighborhood of Jabel Mukaber in eastern Jerusalem, had worked as a driver at the yeshiva. entered the building carrying a box concealing an AK-47 along with several magazines, later firing as many as 500-600 rounds. The gunman responsible, Alaa Abu Dhein, a resident of Jerusalem, was according to his family a driver working for the seminary. Abu Dhein's family said he was an intensely religious Muslim.Abu Dhein, like other Arab residents of east Jerusalem who choose not to have Israeli citizenship, carried an Israeli identity card that granted him freedom of movement and travel throughout Israel.

Tim:

Your report begs some observations.

1. The veracity of the students' statements: Palestinians frequently tell the press that Israel has tried to recruit them as collaboraters by sexual cohersion, torture, etc. While I have no doubt that Palestinians are approached to be colaboraters...because there have been plenty of them, according to Benny Morris... doesn't it make journalistic sense to follow up and see if there is any truth to the assertions in this particular case? Why do you automatically take Palestinians at their word?

2. What type of incitement is preached at the Islamic University that they've attended? It's a fair question, given that Israel suspects Shalit was held there by Hamas, and the extremist views that permeate Palestinian media and schools.

Since starting to read this blog about six months ago, I haven't seen you make a single positive post about Israel's people or its culture. When talking about the Israel-Palestinian situation, Israeli security concerns are often glossed over, while Palestinian voices and viewpoints are given the benefit of the doubt. You view everything Israelis do or say through a critical lens, yet you rarely apply that to the Palestinians. And when you do...it's like someone giving advice rather than actually making a judgment.

Why is that?

But when he tried to leave Gaza earlier this month, Abu Shaban claims he was taken into an Israeli interrogation cell at the Erez checkpoint and told that he must work as an informer in Gaza, dishing dirt on his family members, his neighbors and his university colleagues. " The Israeli told me that If I didn't agree, I had to go back to Gaza and give up my dreams of studying in the U.S. forever." He added, "In other words, he tried to blackmail me."

Abu Shaban refused, and he was sent back to Gaza.Tim you seem to wright this as fact, the amount of detail gives it away, Abu Shaban told you, that's amazing journalism Tim ,this is yellow journalism at its best , good job Tim.

What Tim is doing is nothig new Since 9/11, the kind of brazen sugarcoating of Islam that Tim serves up has become a convention in mainstream media. Routinely, journalist suppress, downplay, or misrepresent developments that reflect badly on Islam; they go out of their way to find stories that reflect (or that can be spun in such a way as to reflect) positively on it, who share the media’s determination to obscure the central role of jihadist ideology in the current clash between Islam and Western democracy and to point the finger instead (as Feldman does) at western racism.

Yet while a number of media consumers are wise to this policy regarding Islam, relatively few realize that it’s a fresh variation on a well-established tradition. This tradition — which may be fairly characterized as one of solicitude, protectiveness, and apologetics when reporting on totalitarian ideologies, movements and regimes — involves habitual practices that can be attributed partly to institutional stasis, passivity, and timidity, partly to a desire to maintain access to this or that tyrant, partly to profound failures of moral insight and responsibility, partly to inane notions of “fairness” and “balance,” partly to an unwillingness to face aspects of the real world that need to be acknowledged and dealt with, and partly to an inability to grasp (or, perhaps, to face the fact) that the status quo has changed.

The article misses the point.

These students are not being denied EXIT from Gaza. They are being denied ENTRY to Israel.

Israel, like any other nation,has an absolute right on deciding who crosses their borders.

Given that:
a. Gaza is firing rockets on Israel. b. The Government in control of Gaza does not recognize Israel.

Denying Entry to Gaza citizens into Israel requires no explanations or excuses.

Now Tim may be right. These students may have nothing to do with Hamas in spite of studying at a Hamas University. Maybe they are ultra-liberal peace loving Palestinians who offer offer the best chance for understanding and communication between Palestinians and Israelis. Mind you if that was the case I can't quite see why they would find giving discreet information on rocket teams terrorizing Israeli citizens to be so offensive. And if they sympathize with said rocket teams why should Israel give them a red carpet to college education?

But that is none of Condi's, OR Tim's business. Whether or not Israel is making a mistake it is well within it's rights.

You realy want these students to go to Harvard? Ask Hosni Mubarak to allow them through the Egyptian border. Then watch when he gives you the finger

B'Tselem (Hebrew: בצלם‎, "in the image of", as in Genesis 1:27) is an Israeli non-governmental organization (NGO) that describes itself as "The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories". It was founded on 3 February 1989, by a group of Israeli public figures, including lawyers, academics, journalists, and members of the Knesset. B'Tselem's stated goals are "to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel"

-------------------

From their website:

Israel's control of the airspace and the territorial waters of the Gaza Strip

With final implementation of the "disengagement plan," on 12 September 2005, OC Central Command, Major-General Dan Harel, issued a proclamation declaring the end of the military government in the Gaza Strip. With this, Israel contended, its control of Gaza came to an end and it was no longer responsible for what happened there. Israel incorporated this contention in the language of the disengagement plan which it drafted, however the disengagement plan also states that," Israel will hold sole control of Gaza airspace and will continue to carry out military activity in the waters of the Gaza Strip." Indeed, Israel has maintained total and sole control of Gaza's airspace and the territorial waters, just as it has from the time when the occupation of the Gaza Strip began, in 1967.

Control of the airspace enables Israel , among other things, to easily and efficiently monitor the actions on the ground, and to interfere with radio and TV broadcasts. Control of the waters enables Israel , for example, to limit the activity of Gaza fishermen.

As a result of Israel's control of Gaza's air and sea space, the Palestinian Authority can operate a seaport or airport only with Israel's approval. Despite its commitment to do so, Israel, claiming security reasons, has not given the requisite approvals. Israel 's refusal infringes the right to freedom of movement to and from Gaza, and impairs the ability of Gazans to carry out foreign trade.

Control of the airspace

The skies of Gaza are full of aircraft, including combat aircraft and intelligence-gathering aircraft. All are Israeli. By these and other means, Israel can monitor the activity on the ground and interfere with all TV and radio transmissions broadcasted from Gaza. Israel 's complete control also enables it to attack targets whenever it wants, a capability it uses frequently.

Israel prevents the people of Gaza from flying. Under the Oslo Agreements Israel retained full control over Gaza 's airspace, but nevertheless consented to permit the Palestinians to build an airport. The Gaza airport, which opened in 1998, provided a limited number of weekly flights to Arab countries. Passengers leaving from this airport were transported by bus to Rafah Crossing, where they were checked by Israel in the same manner as those leaving for Egypt by land, before being taken back to the airport.

On 8 October 2000, shortly after the outbreak of the second intifada, Israel closed down the airport, and it has not opened since. In December 2001, the Israeli Air Force bombed the airport's runways. From the beginning of the second intifada to the completion of the disengagement plan, the airport served as an Israeli military base. When the soldiers left, upon completion of the disengagement plan, the Palestinians returning to the airport discovered it in a state of utter disarray, much of it destroyed. In the Agreement on Movement and Access (AMA) which Israel and the Palestinian Authority agreed upon in November 2005, Israel recognized the importance of the airport in Gaza , and made a commitment to discuss reopening it. More than a year after the agreement was made; discussions on this matter have yet to be held.

As a result, nobody can enter or leave the Gaza Strip by air. As long as Israel maintains control of the airspace, Gazans can use the airspace only with Israel 's approval and subject to the conditions it sets.

Control of the territorial waters

While there is no fence along Gaza 's coastline, residents do not have open access to the sea. Palestinians wanting to go to sea need to request a permit from Israel. Those who obtain a permit are not allowed to sail far from shore. Anyone who violates the prohibition puts his life at risk: in the past, Israeli patrol boats have fired at boats that exceeded the maximum distance allowed. Israel 's Navy patrols the waters and thwarts attempts to enter or leave Gaza by sea.

In the Interim Agreement, signed by Israel and the PLO as part of the Oslo peace process, Israel undertook to allow fishing boats from Gaza to go some twenty nautical miles (about thirty-seven kilometers) from the coastline (except for a few areas, to which they were prohibited entry). However, Israel did not in fact issue permits to all applicants, and allowed fishing up to a distance of no more than ten nautical miles. Following implementation of the disengagement plan, Israel reduced the fishing area even more, and since the abduction of Cpl. Shalit, on 25 June 2006, fishermen have not been allowed to go further than three nautical miles from shore. As a result, the fishing sector in Gaza , which provides a livelihood to many Gazan families and is an important source of food for Gazans, suffered a harsh blow.

In the agreements signed by the parties since the beginning of the Oslo peace process, the sides repeatedly agreed to work toward building and operating a seaport in Gaza . In the summer of 2000, infrastructure work began to build the port, but in October of that year Israel bombed the construction site in response to the killing of two soldiers in Ramallah by Palestinians. As a result, the donor states ceased funding the project, and no work has been done on the seaport since then. In the AMA, of November 2005, Israel agreed to allow construction of the port. Moreover, in order to assure that foreign donors and investors would not be deterred from investing in the project, Israel undertook to guarantee that it would not again interfere with the operation of the port and to cooperate in establishing the security and other relevant arrangements which would need to be made prior to the opening of the port. To date, no action has been taken in this matter.

Consider yourself knowledgeable of the misconduct of Israel's government. If you were a true democracy and people of ethics, you would take action instead of helping to spread lies and misinformation with your rants here.

Nick,

a. The Oslo articles concerning Gaza are irrelevent since Hamas totaly rejects the Oslo agreements and any obligations it has under them. Obviously, if Hamas does not recognize the treaty Israel is not bound by it.

b. As the site noted Israel permitted an Airport and the construction of a harbor in Gaza prior to the initiation of hostilities by the PALESTINIANS in October 2000. As these hostilities were an absolute violation of the Oslo accords Israel ceased to be bound by them.

It could be argued that once hostilities are terminated and the Palestinian authority fulfills it's commitments to end terrorism from it's territory Israel would once more be bound by these articles (which is why Israel agreed to allow port construction after Arafat's death and the crushing of the Intifada). However, since the effective government in Gaza now ARE the terrorists...

c. The effective Gazan government is currently in a declared state of war with Israel. Under these conditions is it is perfectly legitimate and customary to use Air and Sea power to blockade enemy coastlines and Airspace to prevent weapons smuggling.

Just as the British did to Germany in WWI and WWII. Or as we did to Lebanon in 2006. Or as the U.K did to Argentian during the Falklands war. Or as the USA did to Iraq during the first Gulf war (And to Iran for a period during the 1980's). Excercizing a naval/Air blockade does NOT transform the blockading power into and occupying power and it is NOT obliged to permit movement of enemy civilians across it's land borders OR to invest resources in screening commercial traffic. Especially when the hostile territory has a land border with a neutral country.

d. And what again does this have to do with the students? If they want to leave Gaza they can go through Egypt. Or they could if Mubarak wanted to manage a border crossing to a gangland paradise. Which he does not.

I respect Betselem's empathy with the plight of non-combatant Palestinians even if it is overzealous. But their interpetation of our obligations is just plain wrong- emotional rather than logical.

Voltaire: I passionately disagree with everything you say but I will give my life to defend your right to say it.

P.S.
Don't you think it is a bit odd that while you think that I am misled by "Internal Israeli Media" and that Israel is not "a true democracy and people of ethics" you keep on seeking Israeli human rights organizations and newspapers to support your positions? And that you have so little trouble finding them?

It is precisley our tolerance for diverse views within our society that makes us a real democracy and "people of ethics". Freely debating moral and political issues without running the risk of being branded traitors for empathizing with the enemy is our greatest strength and the reason Israel, unlike Iran, is not a threat to the rest of the world.

You believe that by showing that a vocal minority in Israel thinks that Israel has a responsibility towards Gaza in spite of the withdrawal you are strengthening your argument. In fact you are merely demonstrating that your argument has been freely debated in Israeli society- and rejected for lack of merit.

Now if you can show me an Iranian Newspaper condemming the Hezboallah takeover of Lebanon, criticising the government for financing suicide bombers or speaking in Favor of accepting the UN stimulus package and ending nuclear developement...

Again, take a deep breath and reconsider your assumptions. Maybe Israel is a bit different than what you were brainwashed to believe...

Yoni- as for point D: these students are not simply denied ENTRY into Israel. That's a weasly turn of phrase. Even though the trio has been okayed by America's Homeland Security to study in the US, they can't cross through Egypt and fly out of Cairo. They are stuck. In practice,Israel retains the power to open and close the Rafah crossing at will, and since Hamas’s takeover of the Palestinian security forces in Gaza, in June 2007, it rarely has been open.
* Palestinians who are registered in the Palestinian population registry and carry Palestinian identity cards are allowed to cross, in theory, whenever it is open. In cases in which Israel informs the Palestinian Authority that a person is a security risk, the PA must consult with Israeli officials and the EU monitors before approving the person to exit.

Also, Israel can shut the crossing down simply by preventing the EU monitors from getting to their observation posts, given that the agreement stipulates the crossing will not be opened in their absence. Ever since the abduction of Cpl. Shalit, Israel has used this method to halt orderly movement at the crossing. In doing so, it imposes an almost total siege on the Gaza Strip, with nobody entering or leaving.

This statement concerns me, Yoni:
" I can't quite see why they would find giving discreet information on rocket teams terrorizing Israeli citizens to be so offensive."

If this is not sarcasm, I find it utterly reprehensible ! It's a slippery slope.
Being pressured to inform on classmates, neighbors or whoever would put these students at great risk of reprisal from gunmen and militant factions. Would they be tortured by Israeli mil intel to ramp up the info if it was deemed insufficient? The boys are civilians and have earned engineering scholarships at the only academy in their region which offers this course of study. They ought to be allowed to get on with their lives. Would you prefer them to go underground, and tunnel out with the smugglers?

The Israeli officials have declined to give any reasons for banning these three, so that's why their viewpoint is not appearing in this blog.

Because there were a couple of radical profs at a university should not taint all students and professors on the campus. The Unabomber was linked to Harvard, Michigan and Berkeley, but we haven't labelled everyone from those campuses as terrorists. ( Yet.)

ANd Blackjack-Sigh-- your mention of the shooting at the settler yeshiva Mercaz Harav in Jerusalem (which is basically a Jewish madrassa) is a tangent with little to do with Gaza. But, fyi, the Arab shooter was NOT a driver for the school, as early press reports speculated, but had delivered goods there once or twice. We have experienced school shootings at, say, Columbine yet we don't ban Coloradans from crossing state lines. I don't get the logic. To collectively punish a population because of criminal behavior of a small minority is morally wrong and illegal.

Israel has no reason to deny these student's entry/exit from Gaza, and they have no excuse for trying to extort information from Palestinian citizens (does Israel not care about their safety? what happens when their "informants" end up with a bullet in their head?).

And to all of those who are claiming the Palestinians are lying or exaggerating: the students are still in Gaza so they've obviously been denied transit for some reason and I can't think of any reason valid enough to deny transit for these students. If anything, Israel should WANT Palestinians to be educated in Western schools. Israel's actions here are truly disgusting.

Heyjude+Nathan,

Claiming that Israel has any power today over the Gaza-Egyptian border is ridiculous.

If we did would we not prevent the constant entry of Hamas troops trained in Iran? Or the entry and exit of Hamas Legistlators? Or the smugelling of the long-range Iranian rockets targeting our cities?

The EU-Egyptian-PA-Israel arrangement you refer to predates the Hamas takeover of Gaza. Basically what it amounts to is a horse trade where:

A. Israel agrees to maintain the Gaza-Israel border crossings, allow the passage of goods between Gaza and Israel, supply food, water and electricity to Gaza and allow limited transit of PA personnel through Israel between Gaza and the West Bank.

In return:

b. the PA committed to preventing rocket attacks from Gaza and cracking down on Hamas (Basically upholding previous commitments under the Oslo agreements- don't hold your breath). It also comitted to prevent movement of weapons or known terrorists through
the Rafah crossing and to crack down on the Gazan openings of the tunnel smuggling between Rafah and Gaza.

b. The EU agreed to supervise the PA operated Rafah crossing and to allow Israeli veto on the passage of specific individuals. This never really happened. The processing of Israeli objections tended to be delayed (this is the EU, remember?) and in the meantime the terrorist suspects would cross.

c. Egypt commited to preventing weapons smugelling between Egypt and Gaza (Again don't hold your breath). Israel agreed to modify the 1982 camp David agreement to allow more Egyptian troops on the border with Gaza so they could do this.

There were many Israelis who criticized these arrangements because they claimed we could not trust any of the other parties to fulfill their obligations whereas we would be pressured to fulfill ours regardless of their performance. The critics turned out to be right even before the Hamas takeover.

Since then?

With the Hamas takeover of Gaza the PA has no control of the Rafah crossing. They don't want any either.

Nor is there any EU presence. This not because Israel will not allow EU presence (how exactly would we stop them? We have no border with the Rafah crossing). It is because the EU does not want to risk their observers in a gangland where europeans are regularly kidnapped, held ransom and forcibly converted to Islam by any of a thousand splinter groups and factions. They withdrew their observers as soon as the Hamas took over and they have never returned in spite of Israeli protests. Just another example of how far we can trust "impartial international forces" to risk their own necks.

And Egypt? They weren't doing squat to stop weapons traffic into Gaza before the takeover. They aren't doing much now either.

Since neither of the other parties is maintaining it's obligations to the previous accords those accords are now null and void and Israel is not obligated by them either. That's the way international treaties work.

Summary:
In the absence of EU supervision or PA control of the crossing it is open when Egypt wants it to be open and closed when Egypt wants it to be closed and Israel has no say about it. Most of the time Egypt wants it closed because it does not want any contact between the Hamas in Gaza and the Islamic brotherhood in the Nile valley.

Occasionaly Egypt cuts deals with the Hamas for the entry-exit of specific individuals (Such as the trade of an Al-Qaeda operative for 76 Iranian trained rocket advisors). It does not bother to inform or request the permission of Israel for these deals.

To the extent that Israel exerts any pressure (which is not very effective)on Egypt about the crossing it is a function of the preexisting camp David accords that stipulate that Egypt must prevent weapons smuggeling or terrorist activities in the Sinai.

As for why Israel is preventing these particular students from entering Israel:

a. Operating border crossings puts Israeli citizens at risk. More than 20 civilians and 10 soldiers have been killed while transfering vital goods to Gaza or supervising the entry of Palestinians into Israel. Sometimes Palestinians, including women, entering Israel for "Humanitarian" medical treatment turned out to be suicide bombers. Why should we continue taking the risk? it's not as if we recieve any gratitude for it.

b. Many students at Hamas operated universities (and make no mistake, the Islamic university in Gaza is one of them) are Hamas operatives. Even if they arne't they might be pressured into cooperating with the Hamas by threats to their families or their academic careers. Maybe the IDF has hard information on these students. If it did it certainly would not share it with Tim- what do you think would happen to it's sources if it did that? Or do American journalists and pro-Palestinian bloggers not care about the families of people who DO inform on rocket launching teams?

c. The principle of it. Israel SHOULD NOT be obliged to allow hostile nationals in to Israel. Period. Any exception to this rule makes it harder to maintain. Obviously this should balanced with other considerations. In this case other considerations were found to have a lower weight.

Now all these reasons may be wrong. Israel may be wrong in not allowing these students to enter Israel. It may be a collosal and immoral mistake.

But that is not the point. The point is that it is nobody's bloody business but our own. The moment we left Gaza we forfeited any international responsibility or obligations to it's inhabitants. let them sink or swim on their own- leave us out of it. Pressure Egypt instead.

I'll defer to my remarks on the morality of pressuring potential informants to another post- that is a seperate issue.

P.S. Nathan, I happened to see your Hypoethical response the other day while I was drudging up some of Nicks old pro-Iran comments. Obviously I think you are completely wrong- but I would love to debate the matter one-on-one without further cluttering up other issues.

If that's your thing I can be reached at buybuy5@gmail.com (My junk Email adress- don't want trolls sending hate mail to my main adress).

Have you been to Gaza lately, Yoni? I thought not.
Some of the dangers that make it untenable for European monitors comes from Israeli incursions and targeted assassinations by air (which sometimes go markedly off target)

An explanation for the denial of transit entry for the 700 Gaza students certainly is the business of these individual Palestinian students and the academic institutions which have agreed to sponsor them.

Israel has soldiers inside Gaza, just not overnight. That's why it is disingenious to say "leave us out of it".

Israeli Incursions in RAFAH? on the Egyptian border? name me a single one in the past year. For that matter name me a single EU observer killed or hurt by our "targeted assasinations". In any event if that was a problem all the EU had to do was live on the Egyptian side of the border and just go to Rafah to work. Israel has nothing to do with their yellow-bellied cowardinace.

The only reason Israeli soldiers enter Gaza is to try to prevent rocket attacks on Israel. Saying that because Gaza is firing missiles on us we have to allow Gazans to enter Israel is the height of absurd.

You wanted a return to the pre-1967 situation? fine. You have it- we withdrew back to the old border. Now they can handle themselves.

Or they can reach an arrangement with Egypt. But I absolutely reject the suggestion that we have to continue babysitting them indefinately.

If Western institutions want to take Palestinian students- fine. I don't see that it does Israel any good but I can't see that it does us any harm either. In any event it's none of our business.

But why should we risk our people to manage border crossings that are attacked by their friends? Why should they go through Israel in the first place? Why is this issue even being discussed while the government they elected is raining rockets down on my home AND holding our citizen in incomunicado captivity for absolutely NO reason?

Sorry, but I don't think we owe any explanations to the institutions that chose to accept these students. Our only answer should be:

Talk to Mubarak.

Yoni,

Israeli's internal media is a propaganda machine for the Israeli regime. I fail to see how BT'Selem has anything to do with the internal media, but rather, it serves as a check to its influence over who I call the "sheeple" (Israelis like you with your country's best interests at heart but terribly misled). In addition, biased reporting within Israel can be used to my advantage to show the hypocrisies apparent in your government's policies. For instance, your claim that the Gaza withdrawal was for the advancement of peace -- I showed how a higher-level Israeli official explicitly stated the Gaza withdrawal was intended to deter peace with the Palestinians or any roadmap thereto.

My opinion is that any fool can see that Israel is engaged in a heavy apartheid of Muslims, the people over which Israel and a meddling, imperialist league of nations, decided to settle based on mythology at best. The critical point I am making is that the death knell tolls once you allow your government to pull the veil of ignorance over your eyes via the illusion of a free press.

An example of this ignorance would be your proclamations above stating that Gaza citizens are free to leave Gaza as they please, when your government is militarily blocking them from doing so. We can listen to your words, or we can simply look at the reality that is portrayed by your government's conduct.

Egypt is basically coerced into doing Israel's bidding. You need to examine the facts, not the statements/illusions perpetuated by your
"democratic government".

Yoni,

"In this case other considerations were found to have a lower weight." Bullsh*t. That callous disregard for Palestinians irks me to no end. These students are not terrorists, Hamas operatives, or Islamic fundamentalists. They are fullbright scholars traveling to the UNITED STATES to capitalize on a rare opportunity that will forever change their lives. Even if they were "Hamas sympathizers", they are leaving the country and have been granted US visas! If Israel has "hard intelligence", why not share it with the US so the US doesn't end up with militants in their country? Denying travel to these students makes absolutely no sense and you know it!

If Israel wants to abandon it's democratic principles and restrict Palestinian access to Israeli higher education, then Israel has to live with the moral repercussions and the risk of further angering and marginalizing the Palestinians. But when Israel blocks these students from traveling to other countries, they are not only insulting the Palestinian students themselves, but they are insulting the educational institutions that are willing to pay for the chance to educate these kids.

Now for a tangent:

You are right that "technically" Israel has no obligation to let these students through the crossing, just as the US has no obligation to let anyone across the Canadian border, just as I have no obligation to give my money to a homeless guy. But have you looked at a map lately? Have you seen where the Gaza strip resides? 90% of the Gaza border is controlled by Israel. Those who think Israel can just withdraw from Gaza, close the borders, and have nothing to do with the strip, are simply crazy. "Out of sight, out of mind" does not apply here.

That was the one thing that ruined Israel's unilateral disengagement for me. While the withdrawal ultimately had to occur for the sake of peace, and I was thoroughly surprised that Israel had the stomach for dismantling Israeli settlements, it was not done in the spirit of mutual cooperation so much as it was done out of Israel's desire to rid herself of the "Palestinian problem". Because of the disengagement, Israel (and supporters of Israel's current modus operandi) can now claim they have absolutely zero responsibility towards any Gazan, and if Gaza crumbles its because Gazans can't govern themselves.

This approach is exceedingly selfish and short-sighted (why, oh why, would Israel WANT Gaza to crumble?), and it's also doomed to fail. While entire Nations may be able to scrape by, or even thrive, on an isolationist diet, the Gaza Strip will absolutely crumble if it continues to be isolated. It's almost as if Israel desires this to happen. If it does, then Israel can turn to the entire world and say, "See? We told you they couldn't handle it."

But come on! Isolating Gaza is like the US cordoning off the city of Seattle, allowing in only the most basic of supplies, and expecting the city to still prosper. Then, when it begins to crumble (who would have thought!), the US would inform Seattle that they still share a border with Canada and that Canada should deal with the problem because the US has "withdrawn".

Now, before you tell me that this analogy isn't accurate, Gazans have been living and working (and yes, fighting) with Israel for over sixty years. Nearly all of Gaza's economic output goes through Israel. Israel is Gaza's port. It has been Gaza's port ever since Israel took control of the region. The majority of supplies come through Israel (some through Egypt). Closing the border blockades that port and cuts off those supplies. It is equivalent to cutting Seattle off from the rest of the country and telling it to get its supplies from Canada instead. Is it any wonder that the rocket attacks increase when the borders are closed? When the crossings have been opened, the rocket attacks decrease. When the crossings are open, the Palestinians actually have something to do.

Israel has the right to deny travel to these students, but it's a terrible mistake and a disgusting act of selfishness. It shows again that Israel is not committed to a relationship of mutual respect and courtesy. For their part, the Palestinian rocket attacks are equally disgusting, but these students have nothing to do with those!

So while Israel has no obligation to let these students across, I also have no obligation to like Israel for doing so. I fail to see how it's so hard for Israel to shuttle these students over to the airport and send them on their way. Give me a break.

The only thing Israeli about B’Tselem is its name!
This group was founded by a German based Anitisemitic church. If these people don’t despise the Jews, I don’t know who would. Most “human rights” oraganizations are on the left of the left. That is why everything Israel does is a war crime, and everything the Arabs do, including the killing of innocent children around the world is acceptable!
From Wikipedia…
B’Tselem has been criticized by NGO Monitor for having a “political agenda.” According to NGO Monitor, a watchdog group that monitors anti-Israel bias in NGOs and media, B’Tselem also employs “abusive and demonizing rhetoric designed to elicit political support for Palestinians.”
It constantly ignores any and all Arab wrongdoing, and criticizes Irael for just trying to defend its citizens.
When a group looks at both sides in an even-handed way, I will have respect for them. To me B’Tselem is a spin-off of the Third Reich! All they want to do is destroy Israel in the hearts and minds of the world

have you ever noticed that Israeli human rights groups are generally used by Nick to “prove” how bad Israel is rather than how good Israel is, or how good Israel could be? They focus only upon B’Tselem’s words, rather than the social context in which organizations like B’Tselem thrive, because their motives are to highlight only that which is wrong in a society rather than bolster and elevate that which is right. To such people, if something can’t be criticized, it doesn’t exist. They don’t truly appreciate organizations like B’Tselem for what they represent. They only care how such organizations provide propagandist fodder for their own agendas.
B’Tselem could help a million Palestinians, yet the actual benefits to Palestinian lives would all go unthanked compared to a scathing report that says Israel sucks. That’s politics, not human rights.

Nathan,

First of all I am glad that you agree we have no legal obligation to allow Gazans to enter Israel. You don't like us? You think we're Selfish?fine. Now go badger Mubarak.

Second, your Seatle analogy is inappropriate. A better analogy would be the U.S cutting off trade with Mexico if Mexico declared that ALL of the U.S (not just California, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and Texas) were stolen Mexican territory and started lobbing balistic missiles on American cities.

Now that we've settled that let's talk about Morality and national interests.

Contrary to your claims Israelis do NOT want Gaza to crumble. We would LOVE to have a stable prosperous neighbour rather than a collapsed gangland state where Iran, Al-Qaeda and every other Tom and Jerry have a stake.

Not because we are saints but beacuse of our "Selfish" desire to have a state of our own where we are a majority. Doing that is MUCH easier if you can simply hand over territory to a responsible government.

We TRIED to achieve that through negotiations (spare me the lectures about how we negotiated in "bad faith" or were not "sincere". I know we arn'et perfect but we TRIED). The Palestinians took our offer, stuffed it into a molotov Cocktail, and threw it in our faces.

When the "Spirit of mutual cooperation" did not work we GAVE them Gaza, free of charge to make what they could of it. We did NOT, at that point, sever all contact with Gaza. The Rafah agreements, which allowed goods to continue entering and leaving Gaza, our continued supply of electricity and water, transfering the greenhouses which exported 120 million dollars a year annualy to Europe, continuing to treat Palestinians in Israeli hospitals, Even trying to keep the Erez industrial zone open for Palestinian laborers (It had to be closed eventually-because of rocket attacks)...

What happened? You know what happened. Two days after we left, the Palestinans fired rockets across the international border. A year later they elected the people firing these rockets to power. THEY ELECTED HAMAS. And these elections were shoved down the PA's throat precisely by starry eyed idealists like you who thought democracy and human rights solve all problems.

Now let's talk about REALITY.

The Palestinians are NOT going to end gang rule and establish an efficient and responsible government (I'm not even talking about liberal or democratic..) in Gaza. They aren't going to do it in the West Bank either. Maybe they could have done it if different choices were made in the past but that is water under the bridge.

We cannot establish order for them- even if we wanted to they don't trust us. Some third party willing to invest MASSIVE amounts of blood, money and time (at least a decade) AND willing to inflict MORE collateral damage than we ever did AND willing to suffer the hatred of the Palestinian population MIGHT pull it off.

But that third party does not exist. I mean come on, the EU wouldn't even monitor a measly border inspection post when the going got rough. Jordan? They don't want the Palestinian problem any more than we do. Egypt? Don't make me laugh.

So we have two choices. Neither is good but one is much worse than the other.

1. We can do as you suggest. Turn the other cheek to attacks from Gaza. Open our borders to Gazan workers. Treat all Palestinain patients in Israeli hospitals. Allow Gazan students to study in Israeli schools. NOT expel Gazans who take advantage of these oportunities to permanently settle in Israel (and they WILL).

Basically pin all our hopes on Gaza becoming a sucess story. Also hope that the sucess story includes a massive shift of Palestinian opinion against attacks on murdering Israelis.

But what if Gaza remains the cesspool it is today in spite of our efforts? Then they drag us down with them into being a failed state. That's assuming of course that ongoing rocket attacks and suicide bobers don't cause us to collapse first.

2. Or we can be realistic (I guess you would call it cynical). Decide that our #1 priority is to preserve ISRAEL no matter what happens to Gaza.

And to do that we HAVE to complete the severence of the umbilical cord binding us to Gaza. Treat with whoever is running Gaza the same way we treat Egypt or Syria.

They choose war? No contact and severe military retaliation. Ceasefire? Limited movement of goods but no people. Peace? Full trade relations but you only enter Israel if you get a Visa.

Gazans made a choice as to which they wanted when they elected Hamas to power. If they don't like the consequences of this choice they can elect another government in the next elections , OR their current government can change it's policy (Which Hamas seems to be (temporarily?) doing with the cease-fire agreement). Or they can continue doing what they have been doing up to now.

I choose #2. Call me selfish and callous if you so wish but I don't think you would do any differently if the situation really WAS analogous to you. Why tie down the fate of my country and my people, not to mention my own life, to a failed state?

So how is all this ranting related to these students?

Other than the VALID security concerns (risks to Israeli personnel operating border terminals and Hamas associations) there is a PRINCIPLE involved.

The PRINCIPLE is that Israel and Gaza are now two seperate countries. We are NOT their Gaza's shopping mall, hospital, port, school, hospital, airport, mommy or daddy. If we have normal, peaceful, relations with Gaza we will also have normal commercial relations.

But if we allow Gaza citizens into Israel while their government is being as hostile as it can towards us then where do you draw the line? What happens if Gaza hospitals are comandeered by opposing gangs and all Gazan patients demand a "right" to be treated in Israel? Or if the Gazan population continues to explode (their 1.5 million are projected to become 5 million in 2040) and they demand that Israel supply them with water from our own dwindling sources? Or if unemployed Gazans stage a million man march towards the border and demand work?

And don't give me the slippery slope argument because all of these scenarios ALREADY happened.

And again, Israel is NOT the only alternative to leave Gaza. They have a border with Egypt-let them use it.

P.S. If you look at a map you will see that ALL of Israel's land borders are with Arab countries. For 35 years those borders were completely closed to us. Furthermore, until 1993, The Arabs boycotted every company that did business with us. That's why I was McDonald and Coca-Cola deprived for so long (no great loss).

Where were all you bleeding hearts then?

Nick,

Egypt is coerced into doing our bidding? A ninocomp like Olemert is manipulating Haaretz (which you seem to love to quote)? AND we have control of world imperial powers?

Damn.

Add this together with our nefarious plot to destroy a Plaestinian state by giving the Palestinians Gaza and our underhanded scheme to continue building settlements by giving them 95% of the West Bank and you have a damn good X-files episode.

Man, you've been reading the protocols of the elders of Zion WAY too much.

Blackjack,

Calm down a bit man will you? I know some of the people in Betselm. They aren't NeoNazis or BAD people.

They simply adopted the "human rights discourse" as a religous ideology that must be followed regradless of the consequences. Add to that an understandable empathy and an obsessive-compulsive guilt complex towards the Palestinians and you have a group that fulfills a useful function by exposing aberrant abuses (Which DO exist) and providing "moral brakes" in a very explosive situation.

Obviously, If an Israeli government followed ALL of their recomendations Israel would cease to exist and we would all be murdered. However, the same is probably true for their right wing equivalents.

Yoni sez

"And again, Israel is NOT the only alternative to leave Gaza. They have a border with Egypt-let them use it."

Her statement is patently absurd because this crossing is not open, due to "the situation". The Israelis get to vet individuals allowed out by the (practically powerless)PA, and under the Agreed Principles for Rafah Crossing Point (APRC) for European monitors, the crossing cannot be opened without the consent of the Israelis, even though, according to Javier Solana, it is “not controlled by the Israelis”. One of those Kafkaesque conundrums. Unless these students tunnel out, they ain't gonna surface in Rafah.

It's sad that there's no dialogue developing through all these sniping comments...just a restatement of tired convictions, often ignoring events and current practice. Frequently the long rants are tangential to the blog item. It's quite a waste of space. And time. Shalom

Heyjude,

First of all I'm a guy (Yoni is short for Jonathan after Jonathan Netnyahu, the commander of the Entebe rescue mission. And the brother of the Potz Beyamin Netanyahu who is head of the Likud party).

Second, I think I actually answered all your points concerning Israel's control of the Rafah crossing point in a rational and comprehensive way.

Third, the APRC is an irrelevant dead letter. Two of the parties to that agreement (The PA and the EU) are no longer present in Gaza. The first by force and the second by choice (Cowardinace).

Fourth, You are ignoring the intelinkage of issues in the APRC.

Israel does NOT control the Rafah border crossing between Gaza and EGYPT. It has no practicle means of preventing passage there nor any legal claim to do so and it renounced any claims to controling the crossing following the Gaza withdrawal.

However, Israel does have the abillity and Legal right to close the border crossings between Gaza and ISRAEL.

In the APRC, Israel agreed NOT to close the ISRAEL-Gaza crossings IF the EU would supervise the EGYPT-Gaza crossing, Egypt would prevent weapons smugelling through the tunnels and the PA would prevent rocket fire on Israel.

The Kafseque situation is that Israel continues to permit limited movement of goods through the crossings even though the EU bugged out, the PA was kicked out and the Egyptians took a siesta rather than policing the border.

Following the Hamas takeover and the irrelevence of the APRC what happened in practice is that Hamas took over the Rafah crossing from the PA. The Europeans ran. And Egypt opened the crossing when it felt like it and closed it when it felt like it.

If the current ceasefire holds (does not look like it- The Hamas seems just as incapable of restraining the Islamic Jihad and Fatah and the PA was in restraining Hamas) there are provisions to reactivate the APRC (assuming the PA agrees which is an open question).

However this would be IRRELEVENT to these students. Israel does not have any Vetting power under the APRC over people LEAVING Gaza for Egypt- only those ENTERING Gaza rom Egypt.

The reason the Egyptians are not letting the students through (and indeed they are not obligated to do so) is NOT that the EU bugged out or that Israel "forbids" it (how exactly would we do that?). It's because they don't want Students from a Hamas university coming in ANY contact with the Islamic brotherhood students in Cairo.

They simply don't want to create this precedent any more than we do. Gaza, and Gazans, are "radioactive".

Unjust? maybe. But why in the world should we take responsibility for the situation?

P.S. actually I was in Gaza two years ago- just not overnight. I'd just as soon NOT go back there again, though if the ceasfire does not take hold I might have to. My main conclusion from my "tour"? I do not want those people coming into Israel. Not because they are Arabs or because of hatred. But because they are so ireedeemably poor that they would swamp our system over if we ever opened the door.

I just rechecked the APRC agreement just to make sure I was not talking out of my ass.

I found out Israel does not even have a veto over Palestinains ENTERING Gaza? It can only veto non-Palestinians (Like Iraninian terrorist traniers) though it can raise "objections" to specific individuals to which the Palestenians must "respond" (NOT comply) within 48 hours.

Nor does Israel have any power under this agreement to "forbid" EU monitors from arriving at the terminal.

Matter of fact there is very little Israel can do at Rafah besides remotely monitor all entry and exits, recieve lists of all people and manifests entering and demand explanations (but not forbid) for the entry of suspected terrorists.

Apologies for the gender mix-up, Yoni (I'd wrongly assumed the yr name was derived from the sanskrit term for female reproductive organ! :-)

The engineering students are required to get their visas at the American consulate in Jerusalem, hence the need to go via Israel. They already have American security clearance and are not members of Hamas.

Your interpretation of the Rafah agreement and explanation for the way this border functions is not convincing or complete, by the way. Suleiman Awad, the Egyptian negotiator, said today :
"As for Rafah, there are constant contacts aimed at opening the crossing according to the protocol which was reached in November 2005."

Acc to the UN agency OCHA, "Israel has frequently closed the Rafah terminal crossing, within a series of military actions, following the capture by Palestinian resistance groups of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit."

The present "lull" was broken by IDF as well...first firing warning shots at Gaza fishermen in the first moments of the ceasefire and then farmers in fields near the security fence. UN officials said two elderly Palestinian farmers were wounded by army gunfire, including an 82-year-old farmer who was shot Wednesday east of Khan Yunis, in southern Gaza.

Unjust? Maybe...as you say

And here is a limk to an interview of the EU ambasador to Israel and the head of the EU COPPS immediately following the Hamas takeover.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1182951031929&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Reason they give for evacuating? The agreement specifies Force 17 (presidential guard) to operate the crossing. Force 17 gone? EU gone.

Make of it what you will. My interpetation is that the gutless wonders who want Israelis to Risk THEIR lives in operating border crossings between Gaza and Israel don't want to risk THEIR lily-white fundaments in a chaotic gangland.

In any event if you examine the actual text of the EUBAM mandate:

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=27639

Or the APRC agreement:

http://www.ipcri.org/files/accesspoints.pdf

You will see Israel has no legal right to forbid EU operations in Rafah. Nor would it have any Physical way of doing so if the EU actually based itself in Rafah (why don't they? probably because nightlife there sucks).

The only thing Israel CAN do short of all out war if it is unsatisfied with the way the EGYPT-Gaza crossing is being run is close down the Israel-Gaza border crossing (in other words nulling the entire agreement).

Bottom line:
The Egyptians using EU absence as an excuse for not opening the Rafah border crossing. In fact they don't want to open the Rafah crossing under any conditions beacuse they fear destabilization of the regime by Hamas.

The EU are pinning the responsibility on the absence of the PA presidental guard. In fact they are mostly reluctant to risk personnel in Gaza. They have no problem with Israeli's dying at the border crossings though.

The PA is using the abillity to veto the Rafah crossing operation as a lever in negotiations with Hamas.

Israel is getting blamed for the whole sorry mess by each of the other actors and is expected to continue supporting Gaza indefinately even as rockets are raining on our heads.

Screw that.

Heyjude,

I actually heard about the female Genetillia from Indian students in the past. I guess it's better than the Chinese interpetation- I had one poor girl almost run away from me because "Yoni" is the chinese term for a man-eating demon/ogre. Apparantly it is also a num de guerre of many gang members in southern China- go figure.

Anyway back to our subject:

Who exactly is requiring the Palestinain students to get their U.S Visas in Jerusalem? I mean I know the U.S is supposed to be "AIPAC occupied" but to suggest we are behind THAT restriction is just a bit too much.

Anyway, if Condi wants these students to go to to Harvard so badly can't she arrange the U.S consulate in Gaza to handle this?

Oops. I forgot. The U.S pulled out everyone from Gaza after two of their CIA observers got blown up. Hmm... I guess risking Israelis in operating the Gaza border control is OK but American lives are just too precious.

Seriously- If they need a Visa let them go to Cairo. or have an American Official enter Gaza. Whatever. Leave us out of this.

As for Egyptian claims- of course they aren't going to take responsibility for closing the crossing! Why should they when they can blame Israel and the EU?

Fact is though that we have no way, legal or otherwise, to prevent them from opening Rafah exactly as they please. And I doubt we would object if they let these particular students into Egypt.

"Acc to the UN agency OCHA, "Israel has frequently closed the Rafah terminal crossing, within a series of military actions, following the capture by Palestinian resistance groups of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit." "

Details, Details. When? Where? How? What military actions? These claims are simply bogus. Israel never penetrated all the way to Rafah since the withdrawal. Do you have any Idea what kind of forces would be required for that kind of invasion? Even after the abduction the deepest raid was less than 4 kilometers into Gaza. Please trust me on this. I think I would know.

I won't say the concept of driving to the sea and destroying the tunnels has never been discussed. But it was always rejected because it would require too much manpower and result in too much collateral damage.

The Lull-
First of all the ceasefire did NOT allow, at this point, Palestinians to enter previously restricted areas on the Fence or past the permitted fishing zone. Those restrictions would be relaxed only in another two months and the Hamas agreed to that.

Second, if you check the timeline of the incidents you will see took place after the Islamic Jihad started firing rockets. Under these conditions a lower "tolerance threshold" was required to prevent booby traps on the fence or infiltration into Israel.

Yoni,

Without ever reading the Protocols book you mention, I can tell you quite confidently that AIPAC, an Israeli faction, with indicted Israeli spies, has a heavy influence on the politics within the US.

The Egyptian government is heavily backed by Israel and it wouldn't be too far fetched to believe that they involved Mossad or other agencies to ensure that someone beneficial to Israel would be put in to place there.

Finally, you're still under the disillusion that these students are free to escape Israel's grip, when they are, in fact, not. I guess if the overwhelming amount of evidence can't persuade you, then it's time to look at whether or not there's even a need to persuade you, individually, and there's not. ;)

When Israeli borders were closed, Israel had seaports and airports. When Gaza borders are closed, Gaza's sea routes are blockaded, and the only airport was blown up by Israel and never rebuilt.

Gaza's situation is not even close to being analogous to Israel's struggles with other Arab countries, and it's not analogous to the US closing the border with Mexico. Besides the fact that the US has no means of closing and policing such a large border, Mexico has airports, seaports, an established government, and a diversified economy that is not wholly dependent on the US. Mexico would do just fine if it was cut off from the US. Seattle, on the other hand, would not. Bomb Seattle's airport, blockade the city by sea, and quarantine the entire population. How long do you think Seattle would last before it's citizens start demanding the borders be open? How long before you would start to see widespread rioting and attacks against the border police?

No let's look at the withdrawal:

You say Israel withdrew in order to give Gaza a chance to succeed on it's own, and now Israel has no other obligation but to treat Gaza like an autonomous entity. Are you serious? Palestinians are angry at Israel for more reasons than just the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. The settlements, Jerusalem, the right of return, the humiliation, the incursions, the prisoners, the collective punishment, freedom of movement: did Israel really think this would all just go away because of she tore down some settlements in Gaza? The West Bank is still not autonomous, the settlements are still encroaching, Jerusalem is still not shared, Palestinians still are not given freedom of movement, the right of return has still not been addressed (the answer will have to be something other than 4 million Palestinians emigrating into Israel).

How can Gaza be treated as an autonomous state when there is no international recognition of a Palestinian state, the West Bank is still under occupation, and the Palestinian refugee problem has not been address? I have to say I'll be shocked if everyone in Israel thought this problem would just go away if Israel withdrew from Gaza. Seriously, what did they think would happen?

Hamas was democratically elected in Gaza because the PA was hopelessly corrupt. A majority of the international aid coming in was going straight into the pockets of Fatah cronies. Hamas had much better ties with the people than Fatah. The problem was not that Hamas was elected, the problem was that immediately after Hamas was elected, Israel, the PA, and the US failed to recognize Hamas as a legitimate victor. It was the United States that pushed these elections in the first place, and when Hamas won all you heard out of the US was: "wait, no, we didn't want Hamas to win, we wanted Fatah!". Israel shortly echoed this call, along with the PA, and Gaza was swiftly blockaded. How again is this autonomous?

It's ridiculous to speak of Gaza as an autonomous entity when it's economy and it's development is so entwined with Israel's. Israel controlled the region for so long that it inexorably led to such a merging. It's the old axiom: you broke it, you bought it.

Israel's withdrawal from Gaza should not have been done unilaterally. It should have been done within an agreed framework for peace and clear objectives that would eventually lead to a Palestinian state. It's the same situation as the imperialists hasty withdrawal from African colonies. They broke it, they bought it, then they left it on the side of the road in shambles. Israel has done the same with Gaza, and neither Israel nor the US nor the EU seem to care.

Nor do I care who gets these students out of Gaza. They have arranged to get their visas at the American consulate in Jerusalem. Israel needs to just let them through and quit whining. Why? Because it's the right thing to do; the HUMAN thing to do. Israel is getting bad publicity because of this. I won't believe Israel doesn't care about her image.

Nathan,

In an October 6, 2004, interview with Haaretz, Dov Weissglas, Sharon's chief of staff, declared: "The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process... When you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Disengagement supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians".

Israel was never interested in creating anything other than a false image of compromise. When will the government of Israel learn that the world is not as stupid as they are? I guess they are about to learn as the world opens its eyes slowly but surely.

Nathan,

In an October 6, 2004, interview with Haaretz, Dov Weissglas, Sharon's chief of staff, declared: "The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process... When you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Disengagement supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians".

Israel was never interested in creating anything other than a false image of compromise. When will the government of Israel learn that the world is not as stupid as they are? I guess they are about to learn as the world opens its eyes slowly but surely.

Nathan,

"Palestinians are angry at Israel for more reasons than just the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. The settlements, Jerusalem, the right of return, the humiliation, the incursions, the prisoners, the collective punishment, freedom of movement: did Israel really think this would all just go away because of she tore down some settlements in Gaza?"

All those issues were adressed in the camp david peace proposals. I'll go over what we offered then one by one and if you can suggest any other concessions we could make WITHOUT destroying Israel as a Jewish state I'll be delighted hear them.

A Palestinian state- 95% of the West Bank, All of Gaza, the Arab portions of East jerusalem+Part of the Westen Negev(to expand Gaza a bit and relieve overcrowding)+an option to annex Israeli Arab villages on our side of the green line. To be recognized as an independent state as soon as the peace treaty was signed.

The settlements- Israel offered to evacuate and hand over intact all settlements swithin the boundaries of the Palestinian state.

Jerusalem- Israel offered all the Arab neighbourhoods of East Jerusalem. Control of the Temple mount(!), and the Armenian, Christian, and Muslim quaters of the Old City. What more do they want? The Western wall?

The humiliation- You got a state. What is there to be humiliated about?

The prisoners- Release of all prisoners arrested prior to the Oslo peace agreement and all non-murderers arrested after them. This includes revolting mass murderes of women and children that human rights advocates should have opposed releasing.

The collective punishment- see humiliation.

the incursions- see humiliation.

Freedom of movement- Tunnel connecting Gaza and West Bank Under Palestenian control. Full control of external borders with temporary (3-5 years) third party supervision.

The right of return:
Ah. Here was the dealbreaker.

Israel refused to allow more than a symbolic number of Palestenians to enter Israel (a 100,000). I believe that by agreeing to even to that much we opened a Pandora's box but let it be. The Palestinains refused ANY agreement that would limit the right of ANY Palestinain at ANY time to settle in Israel. This is after they demanded that all Jews be evicted from THEIR state.

First of all, and regardless of the morality: For Israel to take in an unlimited (in my opinion even a limited) number of Palestinian "refugees" means the loss of our independence and eventually our personal security. We will never, under any circumstances agree to that regardless of whether we "sinned" in the past.

As for Morality and history: My Grandparents fled Arab Yemen. 800,000 Jews fled other Arab countries and their descendent make up about 50% of Israel's Jewish population (though it is hard to tell now because of intermarriage).

We lived in those countries long before any Muslims or Arabs showed up. During the time of Muslim rule we suffered unspeakable humiliation, forced conversions, periodic massacres and daily repression. My own great aunt was raped and kidnapped in 1935. When My great grandfather tried to complain to the local qadi he was told that she had "converted" to Islam and was therefore the legal "wife" of her kidnapper. There was no trial- a non-Muslim cannot bear witness against a Muslim. A month later my Greatgrandfather dissapeared. My Greataunt was 10 years old when kidnapped. She never made it to Israel.

When I revisited Yemen after the army I tried to find my "other family". I never did. But I thank god every day that we got out of Yemen when we did. The place is a hellhole and most of the Arab world is little better. It is no place for any non-Muslim to live.

Perhaps we did not suffer as much as our European kinsmen. But we suffered enougth. Enougth to know there is no going back, especially given what is happening to Christian minorities in the Arab world. Enougth to know we NEVER want to live under Muslim rule, democratic or otherwise. If you think we are being unreasonable look at the Maronites in Lebanon. See how many of them are voting with hteir feet and fleeing the country that was once theirs.

Israel was the only place where we found dignity and yes, also safety (BTW the murder rate in Israel is lower than anywhere else in the Western world).

Now perhaps The pre-1948 proto-Palestinian Arabs and the Ottoman empire treated the local Jews (And Jewish communities persisted in "Palestine" prior to zionism in spite of all persecution) no worse than the rest of the Arab world. But they treated us no better. Restrictions on occupation and land ownership (prior to zionism), random violence, occasional massacres, inequality before the law...

The Arabs chose to deny us the right to settle peacefully in "Palestine". They nearly killed my other greatgrandfather in 1936 in Jerusalem though he never harmed anyone in his life and only wished to study the Torah. They refused every offer to partition the land (including the 1937 offer which would have given them 82% of Mandatory Palestine).

In 1948 they united (well, insofar as they were capable of uniting) behind a religous leader who organized the massacre of bhagdad's jews in 1942 and recruited Muslim SS squads in Europe. His name was Haj Amin Al-Hussenini and he openly proclaimed his intention to finish what Hitler started. Arab leaders outside Palestine had disenfranchised and started persecuting their their Jews as soon as they gained independence from the colonial powers. When Israel was proclaimed they threatened (and began to carry out) massacres against our ancient communities.

I can see no way we could have survived in 1948 without expelling the barbarians trying to kill us. What should we have done? attempted to "occupy" and disarm a population twice our own in size while Regular armies massively outnumbering and outginning ours invaded our indefensible borders?

I can see no way we can survive today as a nation OR individuals if we let them back in. And why should we? Israel with 600,000 people in 1948 was capable of absorbing 700,000 penniless Jews from the Muslim world and 650,000 Holocaust refugees within 6 years. Why could the Arab world not absorb 700,000 of their own kin? Why can't it absorb their descendents today? Why can't UNWRA offer Arab countries financial incentives to absorb them instead of offering financial incentives to perpetuate the problem indefinately?

Pay compensation? US? Why? We left the equivalent of 8 million pounds in the Arab world (it was worth more in 1948). The Palestinians left perhaps 3 million. And we were not combatants. They were. We CAN provide economic assitance to help them get back on their feet. We offered this- but they refused.

But history aside, and back to my original question:

What would you have us offer the Palestinians (Without compromising the Jewish majority of Israel) that we have not previously offered? and if you can think of nothing more what was left to us after we crushed the Intifada but to carry out unilateral disengagement of which Gaza was the test? I would realy like to read your answer- maybe you even have the secret wisdom to peace....

More on your other points in another post.

The secret to peace is forgiveness. Isn't that what every religion on Earth teaches?

It's clear to me from several of your posts that because of past experiences you hold a very negative view of Islam and the Arab world. While I will never demean or trivialize anyone's suffering, it is important to realize that Jews are not the only people who have been persecuted. All of the Palestinians stuck in squalid refugee camps with nothing more than their despair and anger have also suffered, and they too view their neighbors through the broken lense of past suffering.

You are correct that the Oslo Peace accords were not successful in part because of the inability to reach a consensus on the right of return. It simple isn't feasible for Israel to accept 4 million+ descendants of the 700,000 or so original refugees, but Israel needs to at least acknowledge Palestinian grievances. I have never heard an Israeli say to me that Jewish Zionism was in direct conflict with Palestinian Arabs and admit that the only way Zionists could ever have obtained their goal was to expel or convince the Palestinians to leave. I have never heard an Israeli agree that Israel has no moral right to build settlements on Palestinian land, demolish Palestinian homes, restrict Palestinian movement, humiliate Palestinians at checkpoints, deny Palestinians access to farm land and fresh water, deny Palestinians access to religious sites in Jerusalem, or deny Palestinians access to Israeli courts. It is rare for an Israeli to admit that Israel has done terrible things to the Palestinians because the gut response of an Israeli is: "but they do terrible things to us too, like launch rockets and blow up our buses". There will never be peace as long as the Israeli response is as such, and there will never be peace as long as the Palestinian response is "but they stole our land!". Eventually everyone will have to forgive in order to move forward. This isn't all hippie bleeding heart stuff either. It's a fundamental creed of psychology and religion. Grudges lead to revenge which leads to violence which leads to more revenge.

If you ask an American whether we did terrible things to the Native Americans and African Slaves, most everyone will nod their head in agreement. In fact, when I read about Native American histroy -- how White Americans forced them from their land, confined them to camps, disrepected their customs, slaughtered them without mercy -- and how the Native Americans fought back and retaliated, brutally in some cases, I cannot help but think of the parrallels with Israel and the Palestinians. The United States failed to find a joint solution to two cultures claiming access and ownership of the same land. The result was a near extinction of the Native American culture and population. Don't make the same mistake.

The Oslo accords failed, but that is no excuse for giving up. The security of the region, Israel's success, and the existence of the Palestinian culture all hinge on the whether or not Israel and the Palestinains can address their greivances and live together in peace. Israel is not the only one to blame here. The international community is notriously fickle and uncommitted when it comes to this peace process. The Oslo accords were the best attempt yet and would have nearly succeeded had it not been for the right of return issue. Now that it has failed, we must try again.

Bush's policy of isolating anyone who doesn't fall in line has been disastrous for Israel and disastrous for the rest of the world. The international community needs to suck it up and start talking with your enemies. Peace is made with your enemies after all, as they say. We need a full time, impartial, multi-national organization dedicated to resolving this problem. The Palestinians must realize that the right of return in a conventional sense is no longer feasible. A gradual integration of the two cultures will inevitably occur over time, but Israel cannot asborb that many Palestinians, plus, how can Israel be assured that none of the Palestinians will incite more violence. However, Israel has to make some sort of extra concession on this point because the UN has consistently urged Israel to recognize the right of return, and Israel has consistently refused, knowing that at some point they could deny the right of return simply because the number of decendents would be too great, and no one would argue that point. Israel has also built the separation barrier into Palestinian lands, beyond the green line, and around illegal Israeli settlements, knowing that eventually, when it comes time to draw the borders for a Palestinian state, the land within the separation barrier would likely remain Israeli.

And the "we absorbed Jewish refugees so Arabs should absorb the Arab refugees" is a weasly, selfish argument that only increases segregation, intolerance, and conflict. It does not foster integration, respect between cultures, and peace. Also, Israel was a single country united in a single purpose: establishing an all Jewish state to act as the Jewish National Homeland. Israel would have accepted Jewish emmigrants were they refugees or not. The Arab states are not a single entity nor do they share a single culture. The Palestinian refugees were forced upon them without an incentive for resettlement.

So what else can Israel offer to assuage Palestinian concerns about the right of return? Other than acknowledgement of Palestinian suffering and abuse, I'm not sure. Compensation, perhaps, or assistance, or offers to help finance their resettlement in other Arab countries. A stipend maybe. Above all they need to be reassured that they will have access to their religious sites and that Israel will no longer attempt to expand into the West Bank, seize Jerusalem, or deny Palestinians access to the Israeli economy.

But none of this will ever be agreed upon if Hamas continues to be isolated by the international community and Israel. Its like everyone just forgot that Gaza exists, and no one cares about the terrible conditions behind those walls or the rampant despair within refugee camps. The entire region has a responsibility to solve the Palestinian crisis. We need to set up regional talks that include Israel, the Arab states (Iran and Syria included), and ALL who represent the Palestinians. The international community (the US, the EU, Russia, and maybe China) should mediate.

Bush attempted this with his roadmap, but he left out Iran, Syria, and Hamas. And people wonder why it has failed? Ridiculous.

Do you really wonder why Israeli actions like denying travel to these students bother me so much? It's because it reeks of prejudice, oppression, and revenge and works to furhter entrench Palestinian hatred of Israel. Eventually, if the region is ever going to see peace, Israel has to quit doing this crap, even if they get bombarded by rockets a thousand times over. Even in war both sides are supposed to treat their enemy with dignity and respect.

Yoni,

I like your style, thinking, and writing.

Stat

Yoni I have to bow to your eloquence and clarity about the middle east, that I rarely see by a individual.

Actually, contrary to the above two replies, I think Nathan's reply to Yoni showed a more concise and accurate view of the reality as to Israel's daily apartheid and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. It's no secret that Zionism means the removal of Palestinians from the areas they have inhabited far before any modern-day Israelis came along within the last 60 years. The Israeli government has been aiding and allowing people to settle OVER the Palestinians. The evidence is clear and convincing in this regard.

It's disturbing that you don't see how that overwhelming sense of entitlement is unjust. In 1948, the League of Nations SHOULD have implemented various civil programs to aid the third-world Palestinians ON THE CONDITION that they would cohabit their land with the first Jewish state in modern history. Instead, like Barbarians with technology, the land was invaded, claimed, and the story has been one of twisting truths ever since. This is a hole that was dug 60 years ago and continues to be dug today.

The peace has not been reached because Israel offers bargains they either know or should know will fail. The interpretations of these offers, or "compromises", by Yoni would not pass muster before any reasonable person. Again, the evidence is clear and convincing in this regard. I posted a quote by Israel's Prime Minister during the "Gaza Withdrawals" stating that the Israelis were trying to AVOID peace. What more do you need?

With your ability to analyze facts, I'm beginning to think you guys were on the OJ jury :\

Nathan,

"The secret to peace is forgiveness. Isn't that what every religion on Earth teaches?"

Absolutely not.

Peace through forgiveness is a tenant unique to Christianity (And new-age feel goodism), though until recently its adherents and hiearchy did not actually put this into practice in their dealing with others.

Islam teaches that peace is achieved through submission to God=submission to whoever claims to be speaking in God's name and has the military force to back him up= conquest and subjugation of anyone who disputes that authority= killing the stubborn unbelievers. I do not believe this because of "negative past experiences" with Islam. I believe it because I read the Koran.

Sorry. This sniping was irrelevent to the discussion.

It is simply that the common Western misconception that everyone in the world thinks and acts like they do was one of the primary fallacies of the entire Oslo process.

So was the Western focus on psycho-babble about "Trust", "Healing" rather than on concrete issues and obligations.

I hold myself to be a rational man and given almost any semi-plausible peace plan which does not include the destruction of a Jewish Israel I shall be pleased to embrace it out of enlightened self interest regardless of of "feelings" or "forgiveness".

I would therfore take it as a kindness if you would extend me the courtesy of replying to my rational arguments in kind rather than patronising me by presuming to analyze my "feelings" and assuming my arguments are derived from them.

Yoni, you maybe read selected verses of the Qur'an, saw the words "war" and "unbeliever", and failed to understand these verses within their proper contexts. How would you feel if a Muslim took the Torah and interpreted it as an edict by Jews that Jews are the supreme, chosen beings? Still, I am glad you are misinterpreting a written text, because scholars who can actually read and write Arab have published the correct, indisputable analysis of Islam and the Qur'an for your reading pleasure.

Perhaps some of your deeply rooted tension towards Arab and Muslims is ingrained in this misinterpretation of Islam. I commend you for at least having read the Qur'an. Others who agree with you may not claim the same. That's what intellectuals call sheisty research.

Rest assured, Islam is not a religion that preaches violence or war against non-believers of the religion. Again, I reiterate, you cannot read selected verses of the Qur'an to interpret Islam as a whole. To say Islam is about war against non-believers is to commit the obvious mistake of taking selected verses out of context. You might be unhappy to know that Osama Bin Laden shares your view.

For more information, you can read http://www.aaiil.org/uk/newsletters/2002/0302ukbulletin.pdf , a newsletter written by Dr. GW Leitner about the "Misconceptions about the Islamic Concept of Jihad".

Arabic* typo.. (not Arab) lol ;p

Nathan,

Now back to the main issue (I'll ignore your other arguments for the sake of clarity and brevity):

"So what else can Israel offer to assuage Palestinian concerns about the right of return?"

Let's go over your ideas one by one.

"Other than acknowledgement of Palestinian suffering and abuse, I'm not sure."

Offered at camp David and Taba in a far more abject and comprehensive way than you describe. Needless to say we neither asked nor were we offered an acknowledgment of OUR suffering.

"Compensation, perhaps, or assistance, or offers to help finance their resettlement in other Arab countries."

Offered by U.S and Israel at camp David and Taba. Refused.

"A stipend maybe."

Offered. Refused.

"Above all they need to be reassured that they will have access to their religious sites"

Camp David offered them included ALL their Religous sites in the Palestenian state. Also our most holy sites including the Temple Mount and the cave of the patriarchs.

"and that Israel will no longer attempt to expand into the West Bank"

Why would we offer them 95% of the West Bank only to take it back? That makes no sense man. In any event the borders were to be guranteed by the EU, US, Russia and the UN. You can't get more reassurance than that.

"seize Jerusalem"

ditto

"or deny Palestinians access to the Israeli economy"

Free trade was offered at Camp David. So was an Israeli commitment to continue operating industrial parks on the border and not to reduce the number of work permits within Israel for 10 years.

Bottom line: everything you suggest (and many things you did not suggest) has been offered by us. So why did the Palestinians refuse?

Because we demanded that all these concessions be rewarded with their declaration that the conflict was completely over and that they had no further demands.

"The Palestinians must realize that the right of return in a conventional sense is no longer feasible."

Nathan, please believe me I talked this over with numerous Palestenians over the years. They never conceded the point, but I, like most other Israelis, believed that this was a "bargaining point" or a "Psychological need" before 2000.

After all, there was no way they could actually believe we would agree to this, right?

Wrong.

After 2000 I found out that my "moderate" and "liberal" Palestinians "friends" who I thought WANTED a two-state solution, realy just viewed that as a transitional phase on the way to Israel's eventual dissolution and merger with the Palestinian state.

How? Through gradual and unending implementation of the right of return.

And well intentioned left wing Israelis like me were supposed to help them with achieving that goal for the sake of "peace".

No way.

Any other Ideas?

Nick,

I will be sure to respond to your protests concerning Islam's peaceful nature in the future. However, I would like to stay focused on what I regard as the main Issue.

Will be delighted if you could give your own answers to my questions.

Mr Boxman, in his rather bumptious style, demands to know of Palestinians, "What is there to be humiliated about?"
The recent essay below may help:

Op Ed by Karen AbuZayd, Commissioner-General
United Nations Relief and Works Agency

To Mark World Refugee Day: 20th June 2008

The horrors of the Second World War gave impetus to a quest for universal peace, justice and human dignity, with the United Nations at the fore. It is a disturbing commentary on our quest that as we commemorate the sixtieth anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Palestinians mark six decades of what they refer to as the Nakba, or catastrophe, with many languishing in conditions of exile, exclusion and isolation. This is a testament to our collective failure to give meaning to human dignity for Palestinians and to achieve a lasting, just peace in the Middle East. We who serve Palestine refugees believe that there is time to make amends.

Exile: for sixty years, Palestine refugees have been in exile from their ancestral lands. Nowhere is this more starkly visible than in the West Bank, where the illegal barrier, hundreds of checkpoints and physical obstructions daily reinforce the exile. And in Gaza, the policies of closure and indiscriminate punishment devastate lives, causing mass despair, threatening to destroy hopes for peace.

Exclusion: Palestine refugees also face exclusion from the justice afforded by international law, the aim of which is to offer the protection, security and dignity taken for granted in a world where respect for human rights and the rule of law have become guiding principles of global governance. Embodied in the canons of international law are clear prohibitions against systematic attacks against civilian populations, against deliberately depriving civilians of food, against the intentional destruction of civilian infrastructure and against the transfer of an occupying power’s population onto the land it occupies. The violations of these and other provisions serve to underscore among Palestinians a sense of exclusion from the protection of the international system.

Isolation: Palestine refugees face isolation from the international community’s search for peace in the Middle East - a peace which will be durable only if it is just and inclusive. It must be recognized that Palestine refugees are a significant constituency with a vested interest in the outcomes of a negotiated settlement. Their participation can only enhance the legitimacy of the outcome and ensure its acceptance.

In the face of Palestinian exile, exclusion and isolation what might be prescribed?

End the blockade of Gaza and lift the closure regime in the West Bank. Do so in a way that respects the right of Israelis to live in peace and security. Allow economic opportunities to produce moderation and generate a belief among Palestinians that peaceful coexistence with Israelis is possible while ensuring their dignity and well-being.

Ensure respect for international law and human rights. Cultivate a culture of justice as the foundation from which a stable peace might flourish. Enforce accountability so that those who act outside international norms, be they extremists firing rockets or combatants using disproportionate force, are brought to justice and their victims given due redress.

Foster a climate of inclusion in the international community’s engagement with Palestinian issues. Past experience demonstrates that a prerequisite for the success of any peace process is a sense of ownership among those whose lives and future are at stake.

Finally, let Palestine refugees be heard. Grant them the dignity of acknowledgement. The demographic weight of Palestine refugees globally, the unprecedented duration of their dispossession and the imperative to offer the ultimate protection of a just and durable solution are three compelling reasons why refugees must be given a say in determining the future of Palestine.

On World Refugee Day, I call on all concerned actors to consider these prescriptions in an effort to banish the anguish affecting the lives of millions of Palestine refugees. There is yet time and opportunity to restore their faith in the future.

Karen Koning AbuZayd

Gaza.

And back to the main point:

According to wire reports, the Rafah border between Egypt and Gaza will open tmw for two days, but that won't help these students!

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1819032,00.html

They would need a medical permit or an Egyptian residency stamp. The AP article concludes

"The Rafah crossing is the main gateway for Gaza's 1.4 million people for travel abroad. In January, Hamas blew up the border wall between Egypt and Gaza, allowing thousands of people to move in and out for nearly two weeks before it was resealed. The incident seriously heightened tensions in the area.

Hamas has demanded the reopening of Rafah, but Israel has said it will not allow it until an Israeli soldier held captive by Hamas-allied Palestinian militants in Gaza is freed."

So here's more evidence about the stumbling blocks, another instance where Israel cites security concerns in order to ensure the closure of this crossing.

Heyjude,

You complain about MY style and you quote the UN secretary general (snooze...)? Come on.

Seriously though: The "what is there to be humiliated about" comment referred to RESOLVING all the "Humiliation issues" by erecting a Palestinian state on 95% of the West Bank+Gaza+Arab portion of Jerusalem+Western Negev.

If the Palestinians had accepted this offer, and the checkpoints, settlements, incursions etc would have ended, Then: What would the Palestinians have to be humiliated about? Or is humiliation their cherished goal rather than something to be avoided?

I think you understood what I was saying in the previous post- it was pretty clear. You complained earlier about how sniping was preventing a serious discussion of the issues-so discuss the issue!

The issue: What else can Israel offer the Palestinians that WILL end their unbearable humiliation WITHOUT ending Israel? I do not think it is fair for you, or anyone else for that matter, to criticize us without outlining the bottom line concessions YOU think we should and CAN make that will end the conflict.

Rafah: Sorry, but the AP article does not cut it- and you quoted it rather selectively.

Allow me to fill in:

"Palestinians who need medical treatment or have Egyptian residency permits would be allowed to cross into Egypt, the diplomat, Nabil Amr, told reporters in Cairo"

"Palestinians returning from abroad will also be allowed into Gaza from Egypt, he said, adding that the opening of the border was humanitarian decision in "response to appeals from Palestinians stuck" because of border closures."

Note that the article contains no quotes by Israeli officials. Why? because Israel had nothing to do with opening the border.

Hmmmmm....

So EGYPT decided to OPEN the border, WITHOUT consulting with Israel for "good" reasons- but when the crossing is CLOSED it is ISRAEL at fault?

Come on. Do you realy see nothing fishy with this explanation?

HOW is Israel preventing Rafah from being opened? By threatening Egypt with War? By some kind of Magic amulet hypnotizing the EU AND Egypt? And if we have this power why is the crossing opening now without our say so?

The truth is we have neither the legal right or the military might to directly prevent Rafah from opening.

The Students: As you noted the Egyptians are preventing the movement of the students through the Rafah crossings even though it is open (Why is it open? did Israel "Allow" it? If so why if it has been closed since the Hamas takeover? Are their EU inspectors there? If their holy presence is absent how can Egypt opening the crossing now when it has refused before?).

Their claim: The students lack Egyptian residency permits or medical needs.

My question: Do the students have Israeli residency permits?

Seriously: Ask the Egyptians to Issue them Temporary residency permits! Then have The U.S embassy in CAIRO, rather than JERUSALEM issue them Visas! You can even have an AMERICAN bus convoy take them all the way to the Embassy!

I realize that this suggestion is very radical. Far more radical than allowing 700 Hamas university graduates into East Jerusalem where they can come into contact with the Hamas cells we have thus far kept isolated and transfer advanced rocket and explosives plans (What do you THINK Engineering students study in a Hamas university?)

Still, why not consider it?

I am still eagerly awaiting answers from one and all. Current friction points, injustices, Israeli crimes, and conspiracies against Iran aside: What is the big inchilad