The Remains of Dalal Mughrabi

Where to begin.

First, with the editing. The body count was 35 civilians and 11 terrorists killed for a total of 46 people, not the 70 that Andrew claims. An additional 70 people were wounded.

I guess since Dalal was a member of a recognized Fedayeen group that we're not going to go through the question of whether this was a random act of mindless violence or not.

As to the question of whether the bulldozer murderer was a terrorist, we see how his actions were interpeted by of all people, Dalal's sister, Rashida Al-Mughrabi,\who stated in a program on al-Jazeera, "I want to salute all the martyrs, and send a very special salutation - and whoever wants to be mad at me is free... I want to salute Husam Dweidat, the hero of the Jerusalem bulldozer operation. I salute his soul."

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD197808

However, when it comes to definitions, it is interesting as to how this woman is described by Andrew: A "commando commander" and "an icon of the Palestinian resistance." These are the titles bestowed upon a woman who decided to blow up a bus with 13 children on it.

Indeed, according to Wikipedia, the Palestinian Authority has named a school in her honor, in of all places Hebron.

One has to wonder if those human rights visitors in Tim's blog, got to visit this location in between viewing the video tapes.

Wikipedia goes on to mention that in addition to the school in Hebron, summer camps have also been named in her honor as well as police and military courses.

In contrast to Andrew's words of warning, one could point out that the reason that Hizballah is more powerful than the PLO is directly because Israel went into Lebanon and rooted it out and left its leadership to languish in Tunisia.

Andrew, this sentence of your blog says it all:

"But three days later, they watched on television as an Israeli army officer -- future Prime Minister Ehud Barak -- shot bullets into Dalal's already dead body as it lay on a road in Herzilyah, Isarel." (emphasis added).

Israel's definition of self-defense includes attacking first against enemies they prop up via falsified propaganda and threats that aren't even real, but existential. In other words, their "self-defense" is just an illusion or virulent semantics against a people they literally expelled from their homes via force. The reality is that Israel has been carrying this rhetoric of self-defense to the highest-most, fictitious levels, in a way that we've all had to pay for in one way or another, whether it be the lives of our children, our loved ones, our ability to find jobs, paying 80 dollars for a full tank of gas, or losing our ability as a nation to negotiate with clean hands thanks to our connection with bellicose Israel.

Further, it's amusing but downright ridiculous how people get on here and play the game of "Where did all these Palestinians come from?" as if they just sprouted up from the desert sands upon the heavenly bestowal of uninvited European Jews. Here's a hint: we're not all as stupid as you. We know how to fact-check what you say. ;)

Jacob,

Osama Bin Laden, a man denounced by Muslims and the US alike, hated by Iran, is a terrorist. He seeks to ruin the US economy with little justification for doing so via acts of terrorism.

These people are not terrorists, they are resistance fighters, Jacob. The prima facie evidence is there.

(1) Land was taken from them under BS justification of religious right, and if not, historical claims from circa 625 AD (lol?).

(2) Israel has committed genocide and collective punishment, like Hitler and the Nazis, against them for 60 years.

Just because they kill civilians that have settled over them, does not a terrorist make. In relation to that definition, the IDF is a bigger terrorist organization than Hezbollah, because not only did they take Palestinian land, but for every 1 Israeli civilian killed, so were 40-70 Palestinians according to Israel's own human rights groups.

Further, note, Hezbollah sprung from Israel's OCCUPATION of Lebanon. They want you Israelis to go back to where your parents lived. They don't accept your unevidenced rhetoric of "Abraham covenanted with God that their land belongs to us and they should live as refugees".

As for Israel's destruction being a futile effort, I think the vice-versa is true if you keep cheering on an illegal strike against Iran on falsified justification. You give the mad mullahs a carte blanche to come at you, and raise anti-Semitic views here in the US and worldwide thanks to your bellicose efforts raising oil prices like whoa.

Jacob:

You're waisting your time, here. Andrew is a Hezbollah flack.

Read Michael Totten. His dispatches from Lebanon are far more superior and informative.

Unfortunately, he hasn't been there lately. But I'm sure he'll return.

Um, Michael Totten, who writes op-eds for THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, NEW YORK POST, AND JERUSALEM POST? Talk about being on AIPAC's payroll...

Michael Totten is not informative, he's misleading. He was a guy who supported the Iraqi war not only from the get-go, spewing out his entries about "us being there for the liberation of the Iraqi people", but also someone who still refuses to admit he was wrong about the whole thing! His ground reports are propaganda. Andrew presents a factual and personal outlook of Lebanon from the ground. My Lebanese friends who read this blog corroborate his stories. Also, Andrew throws in dabbles about the Lebanese culture Michael Totten does not have access to thanks to his BS blog entries which Middle Easterners have read and laugh at.

Just my two cents.

"Just my two cents."

Well, at least you don't overvalue yourself.

"Just my two cents."

Well, at least you don't overvalue yourself.

Actually, I'm quite objective and more than willing to support your right to your opinion. Obviously, I'm not the foremost authority as to what blog is better or worse than this one. It's just that when you said that he was superior and more informative than this blog, I questioned the notion, as I always do. Then I did my research, recollected that I've read his blogs several times, and came to the reasonable conclusion that I cannot support your argument even if I tried. His latest entry, for instance, labels the Arab perspective on America's new presidency as being a lose-lose situation and no change from the status quo. You have to question a guy that has spent so much time on the ground in the Middle East, spoken to many Arabs, but does not have any knowledge of the overwhelming history of US and European meddling in internal affairs of the region that persists to this day. Not only that, but was this guy even aware they had an AIPAC conference where both candidates made unfounded, bellicose statements just to please the Israeli lobby? Hello? Earth to Michael Totten... open your eyes and ears, Michael Totten.

"His latest entry, for instance, labels the Arab perspective on America's new presidency as being a lose-lose situation and no change from the status quo"

That sentence was supposed to read:

"His latest entry, for instance, labels the Arab perspective on America's new presidency as being "out of this time-zone" unreasonable, because they believe it to be a lose-lose situation and no change from the status quo"

Excusez-moi por favor, chen-qui :)

"and came to the reasonable conclusion that I cannot support your argument even if I tried."

Oh. That sucks for me.

Jacob:

Michael Young is another source that gives outstanding insight into the situation in Lebanon. Much more informative and critical than Butters.

An AIPAC shill, without a doubt.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/125203.html

Funny how you keep reading and refreshing this horribly inferior blog, hypocrite. ;) Sucks to be you, not for you.

"Funny how you keep reading and refreshing this horribly inferior blog, hypocrite. ;) Sucks to be you, not for you."

Ouch. That hurts.

Comments sections are for debating and tossing off ideas. Scott has had the good grace to respond to comments challenging his statements so as to back his opinions.

Neither Andrew nor Tim have done that, though.

Maybe they're paying NK to do it. If that's the case, NK should return their two cents.

Again, you return to the "inferior blog" to utter condescending nonsense once again.

"Comments sections are for debating and tossing off ideas."

That's funny, you were quick to dismiss mine in a rude and arrogant way and to continue berating the very blog you have refreshed minute after minute (look at the time stamps) for updates.

As for as tossing ideas and debating goes, you've proffered zero reasons as to WHY you believe those blogs to be "superior" and "more informative" than this one. Yet, I've offered reasons why you're wrong. Let's see, let us go to the Michael Young link above. Oh ya, it's from FEBRUARY 28 and lacks any substantive facts about Lebanon from the ground, nevermind being antiquated of important developments in the past 4-5 months. It's one thing to simply post a link as a read, and another to say that this blog is inferior to the link and should be ignored.

As for being on the payroll, I would be honored to work for TIME, but I am studying for 2 bar exams and it is unlikely that I will pursue journalism or blogging as a source of revenue anytime soon. :) That said, if Andrew wants my paypal address I will be accepting donations. :x

I have to say that, despite his harsh rhetoric, NK's posts are truly on point. Until last year, I spent ten years in Lebanon. I am an American Christian with no foreign political affiliations. The atrocities committed by the Israelis are prevalent and widely understated by American and Israeli news outlets. NK does a great job of uncovering some of these inconsistencies with the realities and truths swept under the rug. I hope that no one is misled by people like Davesax into believing that Andrew is actually affiliated with Hizbollah, a true resistance group.

Davesax, if you don't like this blog, please do not come back and post comment after comment suggesting other blogs that you believe are superior. Not only is it tacky to come to another person's blog and suggest a different one, but for someone who has been reading this blog since its creation, I have to say that it is highly annoying as well. At least have some respect for fellow commentators.

Jacob Blues, it seems that you have used up your "you are an antisemite" card and are now resorting to discrediting the actual bloggers in hopes of covering up some of the realities they portray.

Yes Dave,

Andrew's been right in the thick of things. If you want to know about Lebanese olive oil, than he's your man... or not; there are plenty of other reliable sources for food information, even on the varieties of olive oil pressings.

And yes, there's no shortage of commentators who can reliably discuss Lebanon and the rest of the Middle East.

And Nick, while there are many good things to read in the Wall St. Journal, its op-ed pages are not close to the formost reason that one picks up the paper on a daily basis. Either way, opinions, are not analysis, and commentary can be often as full of fluff as real information. As much as you claim Andrew's commentary to be factual, his writing falls into the opinion column more than the factual, let alone objective.

Die Evil, for someone who claims to have no "political affiliations" foreign or otherwise, your push your comments forth with a distinct POV that says otherwise.

As for covering up realities, I'm sorry, but last I checked, its a free country, and one is allowed to challenge and dispute one's argument, whether blogger or talkback commentator.

As for commenting on the errors, both editorial and factual, I find their writing to be shockingly unprofessional from a national publication. You may wish to accept such errors, but as a regular reader, I find such base mistakes shoddy to say the least. The fact that the bloggers don't take the time to publish either erratas or correct these mistakes after they are pointed out by their own readers, IMO, show a disregard for their own work as well as their audiance.

hey Nick you ran for cover who fr*k is nk- you gave your self a flat line.
"It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims. We cannot clear our names unless we own up to the shameful fact that terrorism has become an Islamic enterprise; an almost exclusive monopoly, implemented by Muslim men and women."

"The fact that the bloggers don't take the time to publish either erratas or correct these mistakes after they are pointed out by their own readers,IMO, show a disregard for their own work as well as their audiance."

To Jacob: Audience is spelled with an "e" and the correct verb usage is "shows", with an "s". You seem to care an awful lot about mistakes but seem careless in preventing your own. Anyhow, the numbers you have corrected are immaterial to Andrew's argument. His alleged "error" actually helps you by increasing civilian casualties suffered by Israel. Let's just assume a billion Israelis died as a result of this girl's commando resistance effort. As for my political affiliation, you are a tad bit paranoid. You go on to say everyone is entitled to their opinion. Well, the above was mine. How does that now make me affiliated with foreign political entities? Are you a Mossad agent for siding with the other faction? I think I am not following here or we are on different tracks.

When Palestinian civilians are inadvertently harmed in the pursuit of terrorists (and innocent casualties, tragically, are part of every war), the Israeli reaction is anguish and regret; when Israeli civilians are intentionally murdered, there is self-satisfaction and celebration among Palestinians. Israel takes careful precautions to limit casualties on the Palestinian side; Palestinian bombers aim to slaughter Jews, and regard their successes as tickets to popularity and paradise.

Two polls released im january, from Keevoon Research, Strategy & Communications and the Arabic-language newspaper As-Sennara, survey representative samples of adult Israeli Arabs on the issue of joining the PA, and they corroborate what Gheit says. Asked, "Would you prefer to be a citizen of Israel or of a new Palestinian state?" 62 percent want to remain Israeli citizens and 14 percent want to join a future Palestinian state. Asked, "Do you support transferring the Triangle [an Arab-dominated area in northern Israel] to the Palestinian Authority?" 78 percent oppose the idea and 18 percent support it.

Ignoring the don't-knows/refused, the ratios of respondents are nearly identical preferring to stay within Israel – 82 percent and 81 percent, respectively. Gheit exaggerates that "no one" wants to live in the PA, but not by much. Thousands of Palestinian residents in Jerusalem who, fearful of the PA, have applied for Israeli citizenship since Olmert's statement further corroborate his point.

Why such affection for the state that Palestinians famously revile the media, in scholarship, classrooms, mosques, and international bodies, that they terrorize on a daily basis? Best to let them explain their motivations in direct quotations.

Financial considerations: "I don't want to have any part in the PA. I want the health insurance, the schools, all the things we get by living here," says Ranya Mohammed. "I'll go and live in Israel before I'll stay here and live under the PA, even if it means taking an Israeli passport. I have seen their suffering in the PA. We have a lot of privileges I'm not ready to give up."
Law and order: Gazans, note Israeli-Arab journalists Faiz Abbas and Muhammad Awwad, now "miss the Israelis, since Israel is more merciful than [the Palestinian gunmen] who do not even know why they are fighting and killing one another. It's like organized crime."
Raising children: "I want to live in peace and to raise my children in an orderly school," says Jamil Sanduqa. "I don't want to raise my child on throwing stones, or on Hamas."

Actually Nick, to me what said it all was "Dalal's attack killed 35 civilians of whom 13 were children" all this from "an icon of the Palestinian resistance." Such violence needs no added emphasis.

Not surprisingly, you're more shocked by the fact that after such violence, the IDF troops would confirm their kills against these attackers.

I think Yoni already pointed out how Husam Dweidat managed to murder the third Israeli, a new mother and school teacher, who had spent years trying to conceive a child, because the Israeli who initially shot Husam in the middle of his rampage, was prevented from making sure he was dead.

As for the idea of fictitius comments formenting violence against Israelis and Jews, there is a long and notorious list, that grows by the day.

I'm reminded of the comments made by former Malaysian PM, Mohammed Mahathir, at the opening of the 2003 OIC conference. It was enlighting that in a speech dedicated to war against the Jews, that the minister received a standing ovation by the 57 Muslim heads of state. One does not even need to search for the 'acceptable'' translation from Farsi to see what he said:

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/malaysian.asp

Nick stated "Israel has committed genocide and collective punishment, like Hitler and the Nazis, against them for 60 years."

Boy Nick, I hope you don't attempt to use logic like this on either of your bar exams.

I understand the old attorney's maxim, if you have the law on your side pound the law, if you have the facts on your side pound the facts, and if you have neither, pound the table.

Your claim of genocide splits the table top into shards. Indeed, your attempt to demonize Israel as the new Nazi's, and the Palestinians as victims of Genocide is just another repugnant form of the blood libel used against Jews for centuries.

And yet, you repeatedly bemoan the idea that the Iranian leadership, both Ahmadinejad, and other leaders, have threatened Israel and Jews. Please.

Peddle your hate mongering elsewhere.

Believe it or not, Blackjack, I have more than one computer and do not remember my login password for NK+, which is stored on my other laptop. But, I'm delighted to see you've missed me ;)

Okay, now to fact check your statements, per the usual. You said, "It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims."

Shame on you for forgetting the infamous Lavon Affair, where Mossad agents planted firebombs in US and British properties in Egypt to connive the West from withdrawing from the Suez Canal. That was a terrorist attack by Jews, and state sponsored. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

If that wasn't a complete shootdown of your argument, how about you look up the IRA, my friend.

Next time you should just save yourself face and do your own fact-checking so I don't have such a smile on my face. :p

You confirm your kill by shooting into a dead body for the camera? I thought you were trying to give the appearance of being a civilized country? I suppose that when Israelis shot and killed the unarmed 18 year old from Al-Aksa's crappy clan, who climbed the Gaza fence and was RUNNING AWAY (not towards) the IDF, was an act of self-defense, too.

Hell, I better go start shooting anyone I think is an existential threat! THIS MAKES TOTAL SENSE NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT.

I don't know how else to express my utter sarcasm so I'll just stop now lol ;p

Hey nk- your full off crap Nick hi tailed it out of here good for him.You forgot you dont write like nick anybody can tell. "that almost all terrorists are Muslims."What part dont you understand that 95% are Muslims does that make you feel better.
The religious ideology of the Palestinian Authority religious leaders as expressed in sermons and religious lessons can be summarized by eight essential principles, four regarding the Jews, and four regarding Israel:

Jews

Jews are the enemy of Allah.
Islam is fighting a continuous religious war against the Jews.
The killing of Jews is a religious obligation.
Palestinians are the vanguard in this war against the Jews, and all Islamic nations are obligated to assist in this war.
Israel

All of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea [which includes all of Israel] is a religious Waqf - an Islamic religious trust.
Any Muslim who relinquishes any part to Israel is damned to Hell.
All agreements with Israel are inherently temporary in nature and are signed only because of Israel's temporary balance of power advantage.
Allah will replace Muslims who shirk their obligation to battle Israel.
The ultimate destruction of Israel is a certainty.

One more thing, Jacob, I haven't seen one iota of attempted impeachment of my argument that Israel has and is committing genocide against the Palestinians from you other than a simple statement that I am wrong. If you understand law maxims so well, then you can at least appreciate my need for the underlying bases of your argument.

Here is my evidence of Israeli genocide:
http://www.google.com/search?q=israeli+genocide

Your counterpoint?

PS - FYI, I just scored a 164 on my practice Multistate bar exam with 2 weeks plus left to my exams. That's a scaled score that ranks in the 99th percentile -- rarely achieved at this level of professionalism. I guess I do have summadat logic, yassir ah do. gee golly! It doesn't take a 99th percentile score on a test of law and logic to filter reality from fiction. But, I respect your undying support for what you deem is your homeland as I relate.

PPS - Blackjack, please consider just pasting links to the sites you copy and paste here. It's annoying to have to scroll over your large blocks of text which I, and I'm sure others, don't even bother reading. Andrew, Tim, and Scott, even Jerusalem Post doesn't allow belligerent racists like Blackjack from posting his crude remarks about Islam and Middle Easterners. Where can I file my abuse report so that the little boy can learn his lesson?

From this blog entry alone:
Nick 2
Blackjack 0

lmao!

Israel has committed genocide and collective punishment, like Hitler and the Nazis, against them for 60 years.Israel has committed genocide and collective punishment, like Hitler and the Nazis, against them for 60 years.
you dont like the truth stuff it nk-

Israel has committed genocide and collective punishment, like Hitler and the Nazis,
Andrew, Tim, and Scott, even Jerusalem Post doesn't allow belligerent racists like nk- from posting his crude remarks about jews and Middle Easterners.

Nick: 3
Blackjack: 0

This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Jacob, please consider that although Israel is a Jewish state, its government is not representative of Jews worldwide. It's not pragmatic to consider that people's opposition to Zionism or the Israeli governments policies, which has led to cruel and inhumane treatment of Palestinians, is hateful or anti-Semitic for this reason. You consider any criticism of the Israeli government or its maneuvers to be hate-filled towards Jews. This is a mistake on your part because equating the Israeli government to Judaism is the best way to build anti-Semitism. I often cite Israeli human rights groups, despite there being loads upon loads of evidence from groups outside of Israel, to show that Israel is not completely one-sided. There ARE those that are not bellicose and warmongering. There ARE those that do not believe the propaganda. And between you and me, here in NYC, we know that Jews are awesome :) I am dating a Jewish girl and she's wonderful. My friends are Jews. I am planning on visiting Israel with some of them while they are on birthright. Of course, I will have my American passport stamped, not the Iranian one since I do not want to be caught as a Zionist spy lolol ;p

While I did not read the Malaysian PM's statements you provided, I can tell you that I only care about Iran (have you not noticed? lol) and its people there. Israel's false rhetoric about Iran is not justification for a strike in "self-defense". You are endangering my relatives, my beloved culture, my relatives' and friends' economic well-beings in the US, and you want me to sit here while I see obvious mistranslations and falsified evidence I can easily refute?

Forget the mistranslations, what about the Mossad produced laptop given to the MEK to falsify an Iranian nuclear arms program in lieu of real evidence? http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=41416 . What do you have to say about that?

I guess if you won't bend before overwhelming evidence of malfeasance by the Israeli government, then please listen to reason. If Israel attacks Iran, the region will be ashambles. Oil prices will skyrocket to unknown heights. Americans will start paying 90-120 dollars for a full tank of gas. They will equate Israel's unilateral decision to attack Iran with this increase in oil prices. This will lead to the very anti-Semitism you fear, as well as, like I said before, give the mad mullahs a carte blanche to attack Israel then and in the future. Everyone concedes the nuke program can't be stopped, even with a strike. So, I ask, why do you want this?

Please let me know, I am curious.

NK:

"Yet, I've offered reasons why you're wrong."

I didn't see any. You said Totten was working for AIPAC, and then resorted to personal insults.

Then you dismissed Michael Young, a Lebanese journalist living in Beirut, who has been interviewed by Time, The Washington Post, NPR.

For some reason...God knows why...you seem to think you have the authority to ignore and belittle his opinions.

Anyway, good luck on your 2 ;-) bar exams.

How nice of you to get your petty attack in by inserting a "winky face" after the "2" above. Shows your maturity. Many soon-to-be lawyers in the "tri-state area" (NJ/NY/CT) take more than 1 bar exam.

As for you not seeing any arguments, re-read posting 5, 8, 9, 12 from the top above. It's unsurprising that you did not see them because it's quite obvious you only see what you want to see.

I dismissed Michael Young because you purported that he had a better blog than Andrew and his last entry is from February 28. I guess if you're into reading 4-5 month old blogs, then you might have a case. lol

Hi NK:

I'm not sure what your point is.

As far as saying that I think Michael Young has a better blog than this one...I never said that. I said he's a better writer, and I trust his insights and coverage much more than Andrew.

As far as his "last entry"...not sure what you're talking about there, either. Young writes for a variety of publications, including the Daily Star, which he just wrote an article for on July 10th. I linked to the Hezbollah article because it offers an insightful critique of Western reporters like Andrew, who gloat over Hezbollah's "accomplishments".

Young's e-mail address is available on the net. Perhaps you should write to him, and tell him why you disagree with his opinions, and why people should not pay attention to him. Beyond that, your ranting about him, or Michael Totten, seems pointless. I think they are both excellent writers with a much more insightful and realistic look into the theocratical underpinnings and nefarious intentions of Hezbollah's Islamist goals. You don't have to agree with me, and that's fine.

"How nice of you to get your petty attack in by inserting a "winky face" after the "2" above. Shows your maturity."

Again, not sure again what you are saying. My point is that for someone who is studying for two bar exams, you seem to have lots of time on your hands. Hence my winky face. You also personalize things a lot, and resort to specious reasoning, like saying Totten is working for AIPAC, and that anyone who writes Op-eds for the Wall STreet Journal cannot be listened to. That seems odd to me. It's not the reasoned, point by point refutation that is the mark of a good lawyer.

And thanks for asking me to read your other postings. I'm not really interested, though, in what you have to say, especially after your Michael is working for AIPAC rant. I'm interested in getting Andrew and/or Tim to engage in conversation, here, like Macleod does. I'm still waiting.

I really have no problem with you. I, and many other writers on the net, have a problem with Andrew Lee Butters reporting.

I think one of the main problems with Time's coverage of the region, is that one of the senior editors, Tony Karon, is a seething anti-Zionist who is outspoken, on his own blog called Rootless Cosmopolitan, of his hatred for Israel and American Jews who support it. It makes sense that the material presented through Time.com would be so biased and attractive to people like yourself.

Be that as it may, you seem to have taken it on to attack anyone who disagrees with Andrew's coverage. While that's indeed nobel, I think you should use the time more constructively to study for the bar exams.

Good luck with your studies. I admire anyone with the discipline to take two bar exams. I would not have the discipline to deal with one of them.

Hi Davesax:
I don't see why Andrew or anyone else who contributes to this blog would respond to you after this outrageous post below. If you don't like what you read perhaps you should read something else?
"Jacob:
You're waisting your time, here. Andrew is a Hezbollah flack."

You know what concerned, if you don't like Dave's writing, then don't respond to him.

Dave,

I have to say that after reading your post to Nick about Michael Young, I went to the link you posted to read his latest op-ed, and it is interesting. More than just any writer, Mr. Young is "the opinion editor at the Daily Star newspaper in Lebanon"

Indeed, he must be an AIPAC shill.

And Nick, I fail to see why you of all people complain about Dave's smiley faces when you popped in three of them in your own responses above.

Concerned:

What's so outrageous about it?

Hezbollah has a press office, and is known for intimidating journalists who are not "pro-Hezbollah".

Here is a journalist for this magazine railing against Hezbollah's practices.

http://www.back-to-iraq.com/2006/07/tales-from-the-south-sort-of.php

And another journalist...

http://washingtonbureau.typepad.com/cairo/2007/07/haggling-with-h.html

I suspect, based on Andrew's consistently glowing coverage of Hezbollah, that he's made a deal with the devil, here.

Unless, he really does love Islamist movements whose stated goal is to overthrow democratic forms of goverment.

NK...you also said:

"PS - FYI, I just scored a 164 on my practice Multistate bar exam with 2 weeks plus left to my exams. That's a scaled score that ranks in the 99th percentile -- rarely achieved at this level of professionalism."

Congratulations.

But how big is your dick?

Jacob:

Yeah, Young is a great writer. Don't always agree with everything he says, but he's very smart an insightful.

Another good writer is Tony Badran at Across the Bay. He provides analysis and insight that Butters does not give.

Sorry Nick, but a Google listing of nearly 7 million web sites doesn't provide proof of evidence, only a propaganda campaign against Israel.

Nice though to push the Jews as Nazi rhetoric.

The facts of this are simple. Israel has repeatedly tried to make peace with the Palestinians.

It withdrew from Gaza

It elected Kadima on a platform to withdraw from the West Bank.

Israeli Prime Ministers have repeatedly stated that they see a future with an indpendent Palestinian state existing next to Israel.

Beyond the Palestinians living in the West Bank, Israeli Arabs account for 20% of Israel's own population.

Now, compare and constrast this with such situations as Darfur, Rwanda, and the Khmer Rouge. Indeed, we could even reduce this to the killing fields of Sbrenica.

Notice any difference?

Now, step one more pace ahead, and compare this with what the real Nazi's did to the Jews. I don't recall any Nazi offers for peace. I don't recall any Nazi offers for tolerance. I don't recall any Jews allowed to live as citizens of the respective countries they were living in after the Nazi's conquered these states. Forget about them living as German citizens.

I also fail to see the Nazi's offering the Jews the opportunity to live in peace and freedom.

Indeed, I didn't see the Jews fighting against any of the states that they were then living in, much less against the German government.

I don't recall seeing any Jews forming groups to destroy, or eliminate any of these states.

I also fail to see the Nazi's offering the Jews equality much less freedom.

So please, again, spare me the polemics, propaganda, and outright lies about the Jews behaving as Nazis, and the Palestinians, facing the same threat as, not even just Jews faced in WWII, but other ethnic minorities during the subsequent 60+ years.

One more thing Nick. I do remember seeing Yasser Arafat declaring that he will make the streets of Jerusalem run red with the blood of a million martyrs, and pointing to two Palestinian children, who he described would lead this violence, bringing fire and blood to the Jews.

Davesax,

Again, you show up to a blog you just HATE to read and comment time after time. How pathetic can you be?

"Jacob:
You're waisting your time, here. Andrew is a Hezbollah flack."

You seem to have a hard time digesting your own vomit. If you don't like it here, leave. Same with Jacob and his anti-Semitic BS. Obviously, the guy has been put in a locker in high school one too many times.

Oh you mean the concentration camp Israel started in the Gaza Strip isn't apartheid or analogous to Nazi treatment of Jews?

It is. Wriggle and cry all you want, this is how the world views you.

To Nick/NK+: Just ignore these peons who are attempting to throw you off base.

To Jacob/Davesax: For people who hate Andrew's blogs, you sure do seem to comment them a lot. Davesax, in particular, should just get lost.

"a Google listing of nearly 7 million web sites doesn't provide proof of evidence" by Jacob Blues

To Jacob: I believe there's not only seven million web sites supporting his case but also several human rights' group reports, such as some that NK+ has cited, in addition to hard evidence like videos of israeli settlers beating on palestinians. You must live in la la land, Jacob. I don't believe you and I don't think the rest of the readers believe you. Put your hate peddling to rest.

I think I will listen to you, Die_Evil :) They've already shown their class on these boards with comments like "how big is your dick?" I think peon is over-valuing them, however. *

Huzzah! Hezbollah wins veto power in the government and keeps Israel to its borders successfully. Now to get rid of Ehud Barak, Olmert, and Livni all at once, then maybe there can be peace in the Middle East after all, without Israel and its 2038203823098230282083203892 enemies it has created through its own actions.

One word. Sick.

Where Andrew's sympathies lie is clear. But the degree of distortion he is showing in this article is simply amazing.

The "commando" kidnapped a CIVILIAN bus. All of her 35 (not 70) victims were civilians- no military. It was a random murder spree- not an attempt to "drive into Israel's parlimant" (which is in Jerusalem, not Tel-Aviv).

That this monster is practically worshipped by the Palestinians just shows how sick their "national movement" is.

The only important lesson to bear in mind from reopening this old atrocity is that attacks such as these were routine prior to Israel decision to invade Lebanon in 1982. Had Israel never Invaded Lebanon they would have continued and increased.

The callow journalists portraying the Hezboallah as heroic "resistance" fighters for attacking Israel AFTER we withdrew are just laying the groundwork for the next war.

And you can be sure we won't restrain ourselves next time.

Nice work Andrew.

http://tonykaron.com/2008/07/09/asking-the-wrong-questions-on-iran-again/

Tony Karon = officially my hero. He should blog for TIME!!! You guys have been lagging on this Iran issue (no doubt, you are up to your neck in work) because its very relevant to the Hezbollah situation as well and even ties into Israel's rhetoric towards the Palestinians (its mirrored in ways in how they are bellicose towards Persians).

Yoni,

Please don't "restrain yourself" and invade Lebanon again while you plan up your "strike" against Iran. Go ahead, I dare ya.

Like I said: won't happen :) Just stop the fervent anti-Iranianism and give reparations to Palestinians for stealing their lands and the harsh apartheid situation they've endured for 60 years.

Abraham may have had a covenant with God, but I believe it was Harry Potter in the book of the Sorcerer's Stone who was promised security by his dead parents against the Slitherin. touche.

To the best of my knowledge, the Palestinians are not commandeering Lebanese buses and driving them on "murder sprees", despite a large portion of that country being "infidels".

http://americangoy.blogspot.com/2008/07/aipac-treason-trial.html

Another great blog about the Israeli Lobby in America that every American who reads this blog should read as supplemental information.

Tony Karon does write and edit for Time mag, but as he is based in NYC, he does not blog on their Middle East section. His personal blog is consistently good and worth a read. He has been blogging since 2001 or so

I must say the tone of this article is quite surreal. It's disappointing (although not surprising) that those who are the loudest in lambasting Israel for killing civilians and the means that Israel takes to ensure its security, are completely willing to overlook who this woman was, what she was trying to do, and the means she was willing to take in order to achieve her goals.

The double standard has been here in flashing neon lights and a marching band parading up and down the street. Maybe some are too busy screaming the genocide and Nazi BS that they don't see it?

This woman was a monster.

And yet some people are so upset because Barak shot her dead body in front of a camera? Because she should be honorably buried in Palestine, not Lebanon?

Well, at least we know where the priorities of those people lie.

Is it just me, or does it sound like Tim McGirk admires her and bemoans the fate of her corpse? Did anyone else pick up on that tone from the article?

Is it just me, or does it sound like Tim McGirk admires her and bemoans the fate of her corpse? Did anyone else pick up on that tone from the article?

Natalie, how about I come over to your house, throw you and your family out based on my religious right claim dating from 5000+ years ago, and treat you and your ilk to harsh apartheid over several decades? I suppose you would be the monster if you rose up against me in anyway. The shooting of a dead body, I believe, was analogized to Israel's theory of self defense, which is not in line with any theory of self defense known to mankind. That which cannot harm you, you cannot defend against.

I commend the people above who's priorities are to stop the evils of the Israeli government.

Natalie, you imply that you are keen at picking things up in an article, yet you failed to recognize that the author was Andrew, not Tim.

Whoops, my bad. Same question, and you can answer it too if you wish, Die_Evil.

Did anyone else feel that Andrew admires her? Bemoans the fate of her corpse?

Die_Evil, so you're saying that you commend people like Dalal, you agree with her methods?

Yet you disagree with Israel's measures of enforcing security, which harm many innocent civilians?

You don't see the double standard?

Nick look at the great the state of Israel, the police were afraid to kill the bulldozer terrorist. Any Israeli law enforcement officer who uses his weapon and succeeds in deterring a crime is liable to be arrested and dragged through the courts for year's.They did not shoot to kill the result, five minutes of horror, two mothers and a grandfather were killed and scores of others injured. The “passerby” hesder yeshiva boy on leave from a special army unit who immediately understood that he had to take action to save lives. He endangered his own life by climbing on the bulldozer, where he took a gun from a security guard and shot the savage thug, thereby putting an end to the ruthless killing.The police actions definitely look like Nazis they were afraid to kill a murderer. You don't get more evil then that you fool Nick.

To the best of my knowledge, the Palestinians are not commandeering Lebanese buses and driving them on "murder sprees", despite a large portion of that country being "infidels".NK

Let them try they would get flattened by the lebanese christians like roaches the lebanese would make Israel look like boyscouts.You remember the last time the rebels hid out in the refugee camps, the army were lobbing shells in there like it was batting practice and the world did not utter word.You fool are you getting your law degree at lawyers r us.

JB, when did these blogs start, and why do you think that TIME allows these blogs to continue, shoddy reporting and all? Site hits from the arguing in the comment section?

Natalie, I think you are reading far too into Andrew's objective storytelling. Please point out where in his blog you find that he laments the girl's corpse or rather explain your findings so that I may either have a good idea of whether I agree or disagree with you.

Personally, when I heard two Israeli policemen were shot by a Palestinian, I lamented their deaths. But I did not think that the Palestinian person who did the killing was a monster. You cannot just simply expect a people who are being treated to conditions arguably worse than South African apartheid to simply shut up and die off. These are the political consequences of the Israeli government's policies.

As NK+ noted above, the reaction by the Israeli sympathizers are typically one where the opposition is labeled racist, anti-Semitic, anti-US, etc. in lieu of good, rationale counterarguments (as none exist). NK+ wrote, "To the best of my knowledge, the Palestinians are not commandeering Lebanese buses and driving them on "murder sprees", despite a large portion of that country being "infidels"." This is true. Why would the Palestinians just want to kill of Israelis? I suppose it's the same type of bullocks you hear about Muslims hating our American freedom. Mind you, they don't hate Japan's freedom, for instance.

Natalie, I think the rhetoric of the Israeli "defensive measures" are echoed in the scenario where Ehud Barak shoots a girl's lifeless body. That is, they go beyond security measures and have turned into a vicious apartheid, ripe with uncivilized human rights violations.

Natalie, how about I come over to your house, throw you and your family out based on my religious right claim dating from 5000+ years ago, and treat you and your ilk to harsh apartheid over several decades?

Hey die fast why don't you tell the USA to vacate the lands they took from the American indian.Or Australia to give back the lands they took from the local natives.How about islams conquest by the sword 1200 years ago you guys stole everybodys land who you calling thief die fast.

die evil the only people who should die are those that dont stop murdering other people, and you guys fit the bill to a tee, die evil well said, may it come true.

Us graduates of "Lawyers R Us", Blackjack, would like to point out that there are alternative means to removing someone from a bulldozer, like climbing it and tazering, pulling the keys out of the bulldozer, or even shooting the legs and hands off the actor in the vehicle. Clearly, in any country, I would expect the police to shoot if the perpetrator is putting civilian lives at risk.

And the refugee camp and Lebanese army you are citing above was already pointed out to be a very small fraction of Palestinians, with minimal injuries occurring, in the face of the millions of innocent deaths caused by Israel over 60 years.
--------------------
Natalie,

Just because you personally don't agree with this blog, it doesn't mean it should be censored. Do you live in a country with First Amendment rights like in the US? Because I do, and TIME is headquartered here as well. Additionally, I don't find any part of Andrew's blog to actually show one side of the story over the other. If the actual facts are disheartening to your views, then maybe you should reconsider your position as it has many faults. I find you to be in a similar position to that of the Bush-Iraq War supporters in 2002-2004, until we all found out they were horribly, horribly wrong.
-------------------------------
Die_Evil,

Sorry for responding to them... studying is boring :(

Hey Die-Evil, would you mind answering this question?

So you're saying that you commend people like Dalal, you agree with her methods?

I only ask because you said:

"I commend the people above who's priorities are to stop the evils of the Israeli government."

And now used this to justify the shooting of the police officers:

"You cannot just simply expect a people who are being treated to conditions arguably worse than South African apartheid to simply shut up and die off. These are the political consequences of the Israeli government's policies."

To me, it sounds like you condone the acts of (well, I would call it terrorism, but I don't think you would call it terrorism, let's just call it violence?) violence against civilians, justify them, and admire the people that perform them. Is that so?

I'll get back to your question regarding the article, I just need to reread it. Hold on...

BTW Blackjack, why are you bringing up the bulldozer incident? When did I say I disagreed with his death? lol.. I love how you are trying to paint me as this non-objective person, when in reality I would side with you if there wasn't a WHOPPING amount of evidence to contradict you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_apartheid

Read it and weep. The truth is that a majority of Israelis don't condone the governments actions, just like me! Why is that you are here trying to represent all Israelis, when the majority agrees with me and not you? Read the poll data, ask your neighbor.. but for pidgeons' sakes... don't live in your own little warmongering, Islam-hating world. Judaism doesn't allow immoral attitudes like yours.

Natalie, I don't know much about the Dalal incident. You are misinterpreting my agreement with people like Nick as condoning her actions. As it has been said before, also, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Don't forget that in America, we threw tea into the Boston Harbor along with other violent acts against the British prior to ending their occupation.

As for Native Americans, blackjack, they have been given reparations and continue to be given reparations in great quantities. Are they enough? No. I think Israel owes AT LEAST the same to the Palestinians. They didn't just sprout out from the sands of the desert and decide to hate Israelis for no good reason, right?

Hey NK.

You're the one who is saying that I want to censor things that I don't agree with. Not me.

I guess that using preconceived notions and prejudices to determine others views makes a good study break. Well, it's 2 am now... the mind tends to wander at this hour.

You know what? Keep going with it and let me know who I'm going to vote for in November, it'll save me the headache.

So far, I have it narrowed down to Obama and McCain. ;)

Okay, so from what we know (or what we think we know) Dalal purposely targeted and killed 35 Israeli civilians, 13 of which were children, and injured 70 more.

Terrorist or freedom fighter? It really doesn't matter to me. The question is, do you think that Dalal and her methods of fighting for a Palestinian state should be commended?

You still haven't answered the question.

Alright, why do I feel this tone in the article?

Paragraph 1: background of Dalal, then her death. The entire incident leading up to her death is omitted, and this sets the tone for the article. Gee, it seems that she was murdered in cold blood by the future PM of Israel...

2: A heroic description of a bus hijacking with the intention to kill whoever is in the PM's house along with all the bus passengers... very 9/11-ish (airplane intended to ram the White House). But still, paragraph 2 has a heroic tone towards Dalal and her actions.

remaining paragraphs: the problem of her body and where it will be buried, the implications on the conflict....

I guess the first two paragraphs is what made it sound like Andrew admired her.

I mean, wouldn't a red light go off in your head if Andrew wrote a piece about Baruch Goldstein and you felt like he was portrayed as a hero? It sure would for me.

"Natalie, I think the rhetoric of the Israeli "defensive measures" are echoed in the scenario where Ehud Barak shoots a girl's lifeless body. That is, they go beyond security measures and have turned into a vicious apartheid, ripe with uncivilized human rights violations."

That could be the intended analogy, but I don't agree with it.

I actually see a different analogy, just as in the first paragraph the shooting of her body is taken out of context of the events leading up to her shooting, so it appears that a young girl was murdered for no reason, so are Israel's security measures which, taken out of context, are interpreted in different ways and yield misleading conclusions.

I should read and weep wikipedia, that thing has been hijacked by the Islamic jihadist its a stinkin joke, thats were your getting your research material you will be one heck of a lawyer.
would like to point out that there are alternative means to removing someone from a bulldozer, like climbing it and tazering, pulling the keys out of the bulldozer, or even shooting the legs and hands off the actor in the vehicle.
First of all did you read the news? Thats what the first police officer did, because they were afraid of the judicial system and look what happened.One minute all you care about when somebody is on a suicide mission they should tazer him, wait let me laughhhhhhhhhhh this is funnyyyyyyyyyyyy.

in the face of the millions of innocent deaths caused by Israel over 60 years.
Nick and his lies
Judaism doesn't allow immoral attitudes like yours.

Nick don't go there your teaching Jewish law now, you going to Jewish law school.

Why don't you stick to sharia law.Tell your Jewish girlfriend that if you guys have kids the kid is muslim by Islamic law, and you can take the kids to Iran, and she will never see them again what a lucky girl

Good night y'all.

For the 5th time, I'm not Muslim, Blackjack. And if I was, I wouldn't be un-proud of my cultured religious background that you often berate in your racist slanderings. My girlfriend thinks you're a moron for saying things like you did in your last sentence. Who says things like that? lol.. what did you watch that Israeli produced movie, "Not Without My Daughter", full of racist depictions, for your information? We're sitting here laughing at you.
---------------
Natalie,

True, I MAYYYYBE jumped the gun by assuming you were intent on taking these blogs down with your statement, "JB, when did these blogs start, and why do you think that TIME allows these blogs to continue, shoddy reporting and all? Site hits from the arguing in the comment section?" Sarcasm doesn't read easily over the internet... and I happen to like these blogs, even if they are about olive oil.

As for who you will vote for, that's easy. You're going to do a write in for NK+. Wooohoo!! :) I'm assuming your a southern gal from your "y'all" expression. I love southern people, such politeness and respect. Have a great night.

To Natalie: Thank you for clarifying your stance, I see how Andrew's blog can be interpreted in that fashion. Yet, I don't really think that was his intention, nor do I think the average reasonable person interprets it in that way. To answer your question at last: no, I absolutely do not condone violence of any sort. Do I feel as though she really had any other resort, like a sit in or maybe a protest with colorful signs? No as well.

To Blackjack: Your vehement racism is atrocious. You belong on Jerry Springer, you clown. Take your hate filled garbage elsewhere, this is TIME magazine, not the Jerusalem Post.

For the 5th time, I'm not Muslim, Blackjack.
I wouldn't be un-proud of my cultured religious background

You might think your not Muslim, but to your cultured religious brethren your as Muslim as they come.Your girlfriend might be laughing now, but take her to your great country show her around a little the sights and sounds of the mullahs the hangings.Trust me she wont be laughing then, not with out my daughter is just a morsel of what goes on, read up on it show it to your girlfriend. hehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I think she would be amused at what can happen to her kids, I would tell her to go for it shoot some dice.
The body of a Muslim convert to Christianity who went missing in mid-July, has
been returned to his family, slaughtered and cut into four pieces by Islamic
extremists.
The man left his friends and family almost two weeks ago heading into a
mountainous region of the Palestinian Authority area. He took Christian
materials including cassettes, videos and Bibles with him. After approximately
ten days during which his friends and family received no word from him, his body
was returned to them. He had been brutally killed and his body carved into four
pieces as a warning to other converts. He leaves behind a wife and two small
children.

To die evil: Your vehement racism is atrocious. You belong on Jerry Springer, you clown. Take your hate filled garbage elsewhere, this is TIME magazine, not Al Jazeera.
Davesax, in particular, should just get lost.
die evil
I commend the people above who's priorities are to stop the evils of the Israeli government.
die evil
You must live in la la land, Jacob. I don't believe you and I don't think the rest of the readers believe you. Put your hate peddling to rest.die evil
Davesax, if you don't like this blog, please do not come back and post comment after comment suggesting other blogs that you believe are superior.

HEY DIE EVIL BESIDES YOUR RACIST NAME, YOU WANT TO SHUT EVERYBODY UP,SO YOU CAN SPEW YOUR HATE, WELL IT AINT GOING TO HAPPEN TYPICAL DIE EVIL RACIST BEHAVIOR.

Shame on Andrew Butters -- and his copy editor, if he has one -- for referring to the odious terrorist Dalal Mugrabi as a "commando," "fighter" and "militant." Those babies on the bus had a sporting chance of "fighting" back, eh?

Shame on Andrew Butters -- and his copy editor, if he has one -- for referring to the odious terrorist Dalal Mugrabi as a "commando," "fighter" and "militant." Those babies on the bus had a sporting chance of "fighting" back, eh?

Shame on Andrew Butters -- and his copy editor, if he has one -- for referring to the odious terrorist Dalal Mugrabi as a "commando," "fighter" and "militant." Those babies on the bus had a sporting chance of "fighting" back, eh?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1001200.html

I can assure you, if you read the above article and follow the comments by user, "BBSNEWS", you will be more reluctant to label Palestinians terrorists. They don't hijack buses because it's gang-initiation month or because they think Israelis are subhuman. ;)

Israel is the direct source of conflict in the Middle East.

You must not try to conflate the legitimate grievances of the Iranians, the Syrians, the Lebanese and the Palestinians with the entirely illegitimate desire of Al-Qaeda to bring down the Western system of values and democracy.

Do not let racist views like Blackjack's allow you to consolidate people into one meaningless blob or you will be encouraging evil.

To Blackjack:

http://www.counterpunch.org/schuh07142008.html

own3d

No Nick, they don't do it because its "gang initiation month"

No, the PLO's reason for existance according to Wikipedia, was... "Founded by the Arab League in 1964, its original goal was the destruction of the State of Israel through armed struggle, and was initially controlled for the most part by the Egyptian government. The original PLO Charter stressed Israel's annihilation,"

Such thinking was written into the organization's charter, which stated:

"Article 9: Armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine. This it is the overall strategy, not merely a tactical phase. The Palestinian Arab people assert their absolute determination and firm resolution to continue their armed struggle and to work for an armed popular revolution for the liberation of their country and their return to it .

Article 10:
Commando action constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war. This requires its escalation, comprehensiveness, and the mobilization of all the Palestinian popular and educational efforts and their organization and involvement in the armed Palestinian revolution. It also requires the achieving of unity for the national (watani) struggle among the different groupings of the Palestinian people, and between the Palestinian people and the Arab masses, so as to secure the continuation of the revolution, its escalation, and victory.

Article 19:
The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations; particularly the right to self-determination.

Article 20:
The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.

So liberation of an occupation by force = terrorism? Oh.

I'm not sure Nick,

You see, the PLO was incorporated by the Arab League in 1964.

According to Merriam-Webster,

Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈter-ər-ˌi-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 1795
: the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion
— ter·ror·ist \-ər-ist\ adjective or noun

Main Entry: ter·ror
Pronunciation: \ˈter-ər, ˈte-rər\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French terrour, from Latin terror, from terrēre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee, tremein to tremble

violent or destructive acts (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands

That definition, from 1795, while technically valuable, doesn't necessarily work in this context.

For instance, the IDF is a group that constantly conducts coercive acts against the Palestinians to force that population to meet their demands. Therefore, the IDF is a terrorist group.

The Israeli Air Force, another group, flew 100 jet-fighters over the Mediterranean with the intent of systematically coercing the Iranian government or the Iranian population to give in to their demands. Therefore, the IAF is a terrorist group.

The Iranian Revolutionary Guard photoshopped their missiles to... umm, well, that didn't intimidate anyone now did it? Guess they aren't terrorists or a threat! lol

See where I'm going with this? I understand what you're trying to say, but in response, I'm going to quote Die_Evil from the above:

"You must not try to conflate the legitimate grievances of the Iranians, the Syrians, the Lebanese and the Palestinians with the entirely illegitimate desire of Al-Qaeda to bring down the Western system of values and democracy."

Al-Qaeda is a terrorist group. The Palestinians are not.

Not work?

Let's see, destructive acts? suicide bombings, terror shootings, rocket attacks, all deliberately targeted towards civilians.

That, is terror.

Any nation state, has a social contract with its citizens to protect them from violence. To that end, governments are allocated the means to defend its population from attack. Hence, the existance of those empowered to use lethal force, such as the police and the military.

To that end, the IDF is allowed to use lethal force to combat those individuals and groups that would seek to harm its citizens.

So unless you're going to tell me that the sole purpose of the IDF is to use violence to coerce the Palestinians, then your argument falls far short of your claim.

Second, the IAF training exercise. This excercise comes in response to the threat from Iran to destroy Israel. Iranian leaders, from the late Ayotollah Khomenei, through other national leaders, to the populace itself, threatens Israel with destruction and rejects its right to exist as a state.

To that end, Iran has provided arms, intelligence, security, training, and weapons, for groups dedicated to the destruction of Israel, including Hizballah and HAMAS. Iran is also suspected of pursuing a nuclear weapons program.

To that end, the IAF has not just the right, but the responsibility to help defend Israel against such a threat. Training for that does not constitute coercion and certainly doesn't constitute open violence and destruction.

To the extent that the Revolutionary Guards are part of Iran's national army, they are not terrorists. The act of testing missiles, though potentially threatening, are not violent, only a means of demonstrating power. Is it a threataning exhibit of power? Yes, but nations do this in a variety of ways, including military parades, and the showing of the colors by naval vessels in far off ports.

The definition provided by Webster's, points to direct acts of violence and destruction.

As for "legitimate grievances" all Die Evil's statement does is offer an entitlement policy for violence.

Iran does not have a legitimate grievance against Israel, but it rejects Israel's right to exist as a nation state.

Iran and Lebanon, as nations, are currently in a state of war with Israel, and while they have grievances, it is debatable whether they are legitimate. Moreover, the existance of a grievance does not provide legitimacy to use terrorism as a means to an end.

For example, the US and Canada have had several grievences over various acts and treaties, one example is over fishing rights. However legitimate those grievences are, it is NOT acceptable or legitimate for one nation to attack and commit destruction against the others civilians as a means of redressing the grievance.

Same thing goes for the Palestinians. They have a legitimate argument for wanting independence and freedom. That right, does not give them carte blanche to commit mayham and murder against civilians.

Here too, the focus is on the actions, not the grievance. Another example, in the United States, you have groups of citizens who are for and against the use of abortion. To that end, each group is allowed to freely support candidates and legislation which would advance their legitimate (in the eyes of each individual group) redress against their grievance.

What they are NOT allowed to do, is use violence as a means of reaching their goal. To that end, shooting doctors who perform abortions, blowing up medical clinics where such procedures are performed, is considered criminal, and those performing such actions are considered terrorists. In addition, non violent, but group pressure tactics have restrictions placed on them. Anti-abortion activists are not allowed within a certain distance from clinics and the homes and offices of the doctors performing them. They are not allowed to speak directly to patients travelling to and from the facilities.

However, they are, allowed to lobby, and use persuasion to prevent such actions.

Same thing for al-Queda. In Die-Evil's eyes, al-Queda DOES NOT have legitimate grievances. But in the eyes of its members, it does. Such differences are indeed debatable. What isn't, is the idea that the proper solution to al-Queda's grievences is to allow the organization to ram a civilian jetliner filled with hostages into a downtown office building.

The Palestinians are not a terrorist group but a people. BY CONTRAST, groups like HAMAS, Islamic Jihad, al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, Fatah, PFLP, DFPFLP, Abu Nidal Group, et.al. ARE terrorist groups.

"This excercise comes in response to the threat from Iran to destroy Israel."

I stopped reading what you said right then. It appears that your only aim is to either spread your foolish government's propaganda (are you affiliated with them?) or to just annoy me. I'm tired of, time and time again, showing you that Iran's stance has always been one of peace in the region via EVIDENCE. You only believe what you want you to believe. You only read what you want to read. Open your f**king eyes and ears, Jacob! The vomit you lap up in the form of propaganda is so far off the truth, you might as well get your news from TMZ.com! The "Iranian threat" is propped up by your beloved Israeli government, who amongst its many, many games of lies and deceit (corruption, atrocities against Palestinians, meddling in US politics, meddling in neighboring country's politics) has hijacked your ability to receive real and honest news.

"'Iran does not intend to wipe out Israel'"
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=62989§ionid=351020101

"Iranian officials have once again reassured the international community that the Islamic Republic does not intend to attack any country."
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=63454§ionid=351020101

Another statement of peaceful intentions:
http://www.presstv.ir/Detail.aspx?id=63442§ionid=351020101

The list can go on and on. Why aren't these overt statements reported in your press? Apparently you've never heard of yellow journalism.

Now for an objective 3rd party, and since you seem to delight in videos:

"Is Iran a Threat to Peace and Security?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HatJRGJk5tE

So, in response to you: *yawn* & *eye roll*

Iran leader urges destruction of 'cancerous' Israel
December 15, 2000
Web posted at: 6:33 AM EST (1133 GMT)

TEHRAN, Iran (Reuters) -- Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei called on Friday for the destruction of Israel, describing it as a "cancerous tumor" in the Middle East.

"Iran's stance has always been clear on this ugly phenomenon (Israel). We have repeatedly said that this cancerous tumor of a state should be removed from the region," Khamenei told thousands of Muslim worshippers in Tehran.

If I cared to, I could dig into the many quotes from the speeches emanating from Iran on Qods day; from Khomenei's to Khamanei's, to Rafsanjhani's comments.

All above and beyond anything stated by Ahmadinejad.

I could show you the pictures of Iranians burning Israeli flags. I have already pointed you in the direction of the weekly chants of "Death to Israel" or to be more pointed, death to the Jews.

Of course, yawning is good for you because it lets you avoid the realization that Iran backs up its words with its support for Hizballah, HAMAS, and of course, Arafat, with weapons shipments (Karine-A).

So go Yawn Nick. Go hold up Ahmadinejad's verbatim comments this one time. There is a long history of Iran's rejection of Israel as a legitimate Jewish state.

When you're willing to accept reality, then perhaps you can get over your chest thumping nationalism.

A long history dating back to 1979? Iran was the 2nd country EVER (only after the US) to accept Israel as a state under the Shah. You forget about Purim and Cyrus the Great who saved your people from extinction if you want to talk about "a long history".

The reality is that Iran poses no threat to Israel. The quotes you made are translated from the Farsi in the worst ways possible -- so far off that they don't even serve as appropriate subtitles. "I'm going to eat a burger at McDonalds today." --> "WE WILL DEVOUR THE BLOOD FROM THE NECKS OF THOSE MCDONALD'S COWS"

lol'ing really. no longer rolling my eyes.

For all of what you mis-categorize as chest-thumping, Jacob, you seem to be mute when asked to refute the evidence of Palestinian atrocities on Tim's latest blog. You seem to lack any good evidence when it comes to these arguments as well, having to rely on a quote from Reuters, internationally known to be a corrupt news service, from 2000 (8 years ago, my friend).

This is what I am trying to prevent, Jacob:
http://www.payvand.com/news/08/jul/1150.html

Call it lunacy, but the next time an innocent Iranian dies because of your government's lies, will you hold yourself accountable for supporting them?

For all of what you mis-categorize as chest-thumping, Jacob, you seem to be mute when asked to refute the evidence of Palestinian atrocities on Tim's latest blog. You seem to lack any good evidence when it comes to these arguments as well, having to rely on a quote from Reuters, internationally known to be a corrupt news service, from 2000 (8 years ago, my friend).

This is what I am trying to prevent, Jacob:
http://www.payvand.com/news/08/jul/1150.html

Call it lunacy, but the next time an innocent Iranian dies because of your government's lies, will you hold yourself accountable for supporting them?

The funniest part? I showed you 3 unequivocal statements from ---2008--- that Iran does not intend to attack Israel and you come back with an out of context, mistranslated quote from 2000.

Oy! lol

Wow Nick,

Such cultural sensitivity, the use of the Yiddish Oy to emphasize your snarkiness. I appreciate your ability to descend into vulgarities to make your point. What happened, you broke the last table with your pounding? Figure to go the polemic route? It appears so, from questioning whether I'm a government agent (for the record not, not that it matters either way) to the advocacy route about Israel's crimes both real and fantastic. But then again, when fighting Israel, its enemies never really bother to worry about the truth.

The fact of the matter is, Iran's intentions are anything but transparent, and while you can parse the Farsi into English however you want, you are unable to advance an argument for the signage that Ahmadinejad stands under "A World without Zionism", or deny any of the military support Iran has provided Hizballah, HAMAS, and Fatah.

Based on those arguments, Iran might not be as wholly truthful as you so claim. Indeed, Iran can speak out of both sides of its mouth. Yes, it has declared it will not attack any country. But the Iranian government rejects the existence of Israel as a legitimate state, and therefore, if they do attack it, won't be breaking the letter of their word, would they now.

As for the 'my government' bit, you seem to be claiming the US as your home as well, so perhaps you should be stating the next time your government decides to shoot down an Iranian jetliner... Tell me Nick, are you going to blame yourself? Or just wonder what you were saying in the translation.

In regards to the eight years ago, my point is to show you that Ahmadinejad's stand on Israel is not some one off from some crackpot, but part of Iran's strategic goals, from Khomenei on down.

Of course, its amusing to all of a sudden hear that Reuters is now "suspect". Who else falls under your list of illigitimate?

And yes, long history, indeed, from the beginning of the Iranian Revolutionary Government.

Yes, its nice to recall Purim, indeed, it was a Persian vizir that tried to wipe us out that time, and it was the Jews ability to defend themselves, even then, that helped keep us alive.

Blah blah blah - no evidence supporting your arguments yet again. Still hiding in this blog no one reads anymore -- I'm awaiting for your response to my EVIDENCE. You're boring, Jacob. You sound like a whiny grandma wringing her panties because you have no other argument to proffer. You call Andrew and Tim armchair journalists, but there you are, like a keyboard samurai making ineffective arguments and twisting the truths. We lawyer's don't pound tables, we make arguments SUPPORTED BY EVIDENCE. It is evident now that I must retract my comment that you're intelligent -- it is apparent that you are anything but able to make a sound and rational judgment based on supporting facts.

You keep huffing and puffing, and the world will keep rolling their eyes at you. This is the last reply you will get from me here, so say what you will after -- I won't read it :)

Like I said, refute the evidence of Israeli atrocities against Palestinians in this blog: http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/timeblogs/middle_east/~3/336040277/security_threat_turns_blair_ba.html to prove that you are SOMEWHAT credible, and I'll take you off mute. ;)

and by we lawyers I mean to say that I am a prospective lawyer -- not one yet. ;)

Nick, you write very well and your points are ultimately right and convincing, but I think Jacob's aim is simply to litter this blog with his ridiculous opinions so that yours are diluted. He is no better than your other antagonist, Blackjack, w