Interesting Point

Okay, you can, essentially, accuse everyone who recognizes Bush for the incompetent boob that he is of hating America and cheering for the death of US soldiers in a war we did everything we could to keep them out of in the first place, but anybody who points out the childish, self-agrandizing absurdity of you're doing so is to be "automatically ignored".
"dopey vitriol", "make an onanistic foold of yourself"
Pundit, heal thyself.

Agree. It's not only the temperatures, it's the weather. Jan-March is the rainy season, and in Iraq that means the muddy season. The mud makes it much harder to bury/hide IEDs, much harder to conduct a drive-by shooting, much harder to move weapons around the country. There are also fewer people (targets) on the streets. Plus, for a lot of the rural population, it's the planting season - little grows in the hot months, so now is when they do all their work.

Will all war related media criticism be henceforth designated "onanistic foolishness"? Or just all criticism of you?

Follow-up question:
Does this mean you're going to stop whining about how mean everybody is to you?

I can't wait till Time starts an actual blog...

Hey, Joe I for one am thankful that one more has started to see the fallacies of this WH and its endeavors.
The Pres. in his latest tantrum has challenged those who don't see him as a 'talented decider' for a plan. I say that I doubt that the PC have the courage to institute a real plan.
Plan ONE: leap frog the troops back to Kuwait and let the Iraqis really decide what they want to do with 'democracy'. Then concentrate on rebuilding the USA with an industrial-military base that is educated, energy independent, and based on the spirit of the Constitution.
Plan TWO: start a draft and enact a 'victory tax', close the borders of Iraq and the USA while providing enough security to support local economies, help the Iraqi government deal with establishing basic services, secure and rebuild the 'oil' (last est. I heard was that that would take 12 years), and stop outsourcing USA infrastructure, including industry and a "Manhattan Project" for alternative energy-energy independent USA while restoring the spirit of the US Constitution and building a federal government that actually functions.
Unfortunately, from experience none of the above will get into the 08 platforms of either party, let alone get by the lobbyists on the hill.

"As for the dopey denoument--Henceforth, any and all ad hominem "pundit scum" arguments will be automatically ignored."

Which would be different how, exactly, from your response to past critiques? Ignoring unpleasantries seems to be something of a theme in your recent work, Joe.

Guys, don't you realize that Jokeline gets to make any comment he wants about the strawmen that inhabit his noggin, cause he knows they aren't real people and therefore won't get their feelings hurt. Jokeline, however is a real person, and when you're all mean to him, it hurts his fee-fees.

C'mon Joe, you started calling people naive and unserious way before I did. While you guys were trying to make fun of mistaken quotes of Al Gore creating the internet, some people were wondering why we were going to turn the Presidency of the U.S. over to a guy whose idea of a good time as a teenager was putting firecrackers in frogs mouths. Naive and unserious, I'll stand by that. How's Pelosi's fashion sense these days anyways?

I think Joe's reader might have a point, but I don't know if Bush's administration has enough intellectual capacity to correlate weather patterns with violence. I think Bush is being forced to take action right now otherwise his support for the war from Republicans will be completely diminished. However, this may already be the case with the recent news of increasing troop activity.

"Henceforth, any and all ad hominem "pundit scum" arguments will be automatically ignored."
In a perfect world someone who has been horribly, catastrophically wrong about so much of importance for so long; where the consequences of his errors have been so dire, would apologize, vow that to avoid repeating his mal/mis/nonfeasance he will never again utter an opinion on any matter that DOES matter, and devote the remainder of his life to doing good works.
In the world we live in Joe Klein is given a blog. a toy that he doesn’t seem to understand. Mr. Klein can ignore who he will as he has consistently ignored everyone who was right about Bush and Iraq before they became a problem. If Mr. Klein ignores you it doesn’t mean you’re right but it does mean you could be.

Joe Klein, Time's Hypocrisy Correspondent since 2000

"Henceforth, any and all ad hominem "pundit scum" arguments will be automatically ignored."

Clearly, Joe lives in an irony-free world...

Hmmm. The poster said:

"You don't have to thank me for giving you a head's up Joe, just go tell some guy without legs you are sorry for being an enabler."

Sorry Joe, but the fact is you and people like you in the corporate media have carried water for this Administration for years, especially during the run up to the Iraq War. Thus, you and people like you helped Bush get us into this mess in Iraq, and you and people like you bear at least some of the responsibility for the death, maiming and destruction that this war has so far wrought upon tens of thousands of lives (and upon the reputation and treasury of our nation.)

I can understand that you don't like to be reminded of this--don't like to be held accountable for your actions--which is, after all, what the commentator you objected to was doing. Nonetheless, that's the way things are.

A lot of us who were paying close attention during the run up to the war (largely through the internet and the various international websites and alternative national sites that carried more of the truth than the mainstream American corporate media did) KNEW that the reasons Bush was giving for his adventure in Iraq were LIES . . . and we were also predicting that the whole adventure would turn out to be the disaster it has in fact become.

We were right. You and people like you were wrong (and maybe worse, purposely playing along with the Administration by suppressing the truth), and in being wrong, you and people like you enabled this Administration to run roughshod over a rational, honest and just foreign policy, and start an illegal, immoral, unnecessary, and deceitful war. As such, you and people like you have blood on your hands.

Slice and dice it anyway you want. Dismiss my comment here as an "ad hominem 'pundit scum'" attack.

But them's the facts.

If you want to earn the respect of the discerning among us, and salvage some shred of credibility, then you can start by coming clean about your past sins and issuing a mea culpa. Absent this, you and the rest of the corporate media, at least for many of us here, will be consigned to continued irrelevance.

And I hope that with each passing day, more and more members of the public are feeling much the same way.

Purely as a business move (Time did start this blog in an attempt to be relevant to a "new" way that Americans are getting their news and communicating about politics, and that attempt to be relevant was ultimately about continuing to make money, was it not?), I would think that you would be more contrite in dealing with the posters here, rather than engaging in hissy fit because you don't like people reminding you of your sins and moral culpability for this fiasco called the Bush Administration and what it has done and gotten away with in the Middle East.

Joe, can you once and for all admit that you were wrong about this war? And can you do so without any hedging and hemming and hawing? Then, can you tell us why we should consider you so much more serious and worthy of reading than those silly fools who were right from the beginning? Is it because you were wrong for the right reasons? And they were all wrong for the right reasons? No, if you really want to go about rehabilitating your credibility with your readers, you'd better stay away from that one.

Frankly, I have no idea how you could again be considered a serious writer. I tune in from time to time because I like to see you squirm.

Joe, we're waiting for you to stop ad hominem attacks on those darned lefty bloggers and those reckless libruls.... you are so utterly the pot (calling the kettle black), that is.

Oh, was that vitriol??? Sorry. I'm doing my best just to follow your example.

Now I get it! Joe Klein doesn't write this blog: Holy Joe Lieberman does!

OK. This victim/veteran of the Nixon-Kissinger Fig Leaf Contingent (Vietnam 1970-1972) apologizes for the ad hominem implications of confusing one enabler of the Cheney-Bush Buy Time brigade with another.

Just remember, colonial quagmire fans, that the tipping point may soon turn the corner connecting the dots on the inkstained flypaper dominoes in the tunnel at the end of the light -- any day now, honest.

One of the most common problems I have with reading criticism, from the far left and far right during the entire Iraq war has been the feality to their chosen pre-war position.
Thus anyone who supported the war but has since voiced concerns and criticism of its implementation and outcome (which is a poor word since the outcome is far from knowable) is somehow duplicitous in the left's view and therefore forever tainted, or on the right's view, giving in to the fearmongering.
My support for removing Saddam had little to do with his argument that Saddam was an immediate threat with stockpiles of WMD. Instead, I, as many other centrist believe, he was a tyrant who was the central destablizing force in the region, and the best chance at change.
What I did not expect was the administration to run so shoddy an operation on the ground, which apparently was caused by so little real planning, and a GOP congress that kow-towed to every whim.
What I see instead is either side advancing a politically motivated agenda while men and women in uniform continue to die because no one is actively looking for real solutions beyond pulling out all troops are 'staying the course' (setting aside for the moment the latest 'surge' debate).
What rational (and by that I mean non-rigid-ideologues) person might do is set aside for the moment how and why we are in the war, and focus on the endgame. Then when (or if) there's peace or some type of stablity there shall be plenty of time for the recriminations and heated rhetoric.

'As for the dopey denoument--Henceforth, any and all ad hominem "pundit scum" arguments will be automatically ignored. You want to argue substance, fine. You want to make an onanistic fool of yourself, you have my sympathy but not my attention.'

What's the matter, Joe? Why are you so combative? Tired of taking it on the chin?
To put labels like "onanistic" and "dopey" on your detractors is something I'd expect from O'Reilly or Hannity, not from someone on the side you're supposed to be on.

Ron since there are boatloads of tyrants in the world and given that we had just started a war against those who truly were responsible for 9/11, why do you think it was a good idea to make a 360 degree turn and attack Iraq? And why did Iraq make it to the front of the line?

Was it really worth interrupting the war on terror, that the entire world was sympathetic to, to take out a country that was already contained? Why do centrists believe the decision to postpone the war on terror and sacrifice the support there was for was such a good idea?

Joe, you're ruining your career with this foray into the blogosphere. I don't understand why you persist.

Joe's still trying to figure out how this whole intertubes thing works. He's used to the idea that if he writes some rubbish in a weekly newsmagazine, only a few of the people he insulted or otherwise ticked off will bother to put tongue to stamp in reply, and if his editor choses to print any of those letters, most people will have recycled the original column by then.

Things move a little faster now, and the refutations of Joe's ridiculous assertions can appear almost immediately after he pushes the 'submit' button.

Let's see how this ends up.

"Instead, I, as many other centrist believe, he was a tyrant who was the central destablizing force in the region, and the best chance at change."

Saddam was a DEstabilizing force? What channel were you watching, my centrist friend?

Ron, you seem late to the game. "Mr. Faith based," (or Joe by his Decider pet name) has said that the people that were right about Bushco. were lucky but they were still contemptible isolationist hippies who were naive. It didn't matter if we did the research and read the tea leaves and came to a well-documented and nuanced position that the people trying to shove Iraq in our faces were contemptible lying little autocratic warmongers that had no intention of doing anything right; if you opposed the war you were unserious and naive. Even if you weren't an isolationist or hippie.
There are plenty of people like you Ron, who got played. You can admit that. Joe won't. No big-shot pundit will. Ask yourself why the few pundits who were right, stood up to this, or fessed up are doing worse than the ones who are the most disillusioned and craven. I mean, Bill Kristol just got another job and he sure is on TV a lot...

This is hilarious. Mr. Klein receives a thoughtful and well written comment that, in its last two lines, drifts into an ad hominem attack that will distract the reader from its main point.

A good writer would have simply cleaned up the draft by editing out the last two lines, but instead of doing so Mr. Klein presents the comment in its entirety, balancing the personal attack at the end with one of his own (an odd thing to do, since he wanted to ENDORSE commenters comment).

Now his readers have four things in front of them: 1) the original comment; 2) its personal attack; 3) Klein's endorsement of the original comment; and 4) Klein's personal attack.

Understandably distracted from the thrust of the original comment, Mr. Klein's readers take him task for his personal attack, and the original point of the entire post is generally lost in the fray.

This blog is more entertaining than I thought it would be. Can I write for Time? I think I could do this.

Why focus on this trivia? It's easy to anticipate fairly closely how the carnage biz is going to run in Baghdad, winter blip or no winter blip.

The significant argument now is the Republican canard, playing on Christian Right Manichaeanism, about withdrawal from central Iraq creating a material catastrophe for American interests. We can all see what it will do for the American Right's vanity, ego, and political prospects. But other than domestic political considerations, why should anyone take this 'withdrawal means disaster' tripe seriously?

I know what the answer paranoid Rightists and the people who have Iraqi blood on their hands will give us. But what is the objective answer for the rest of us? After all its murderousness, Al Qaeda will hardly find safe haven in Iraq. Iranian power seems rather overstated and overrated. If Iraq's oil is tapped vigorously in 15 years rather than 5, is that not a good thing for the world, stretching out reserves rather than burning them now? The longer I look at the downsides, the smaller they seem. And if withdrawal seems to contradict a sense of obligation, maybe American withdrawal from central Iraq to safe haven zones coincident with the oil fields or along the borders is a move which allows some redemption for the wrongdoing of the past 4 years. That move also creates a measure of control such that the Iraqi civil war stays confined, geographically.

See, the problem is, Joe, you and your pundit colleagues have spent most of the last decade relentlessly obsessed with the trivial.

That probably wouldn't be so dangerous if you were a garbageman, or wrote for the National Enquirer. Then the press's insistence that Al Gore's sweaters were worthy of many articles (and now, groan, Nancy Pelosi's suits), and that John Kerry's haircut and French-fluency and Clinton's blowjob, wouldn't be so dangerous. But there's this darned real world out here, where the president you guys help "elect" took us into a real war where real young men and women are really dying.

Now, Mr. Klein, you are still writing like what's important is what's "cool". Bush, you've finally noticed, is widely unpopular, and so, just like high school kids, you've kicked him out of the cool group. Wow. We're supposed to be impressed with your maturity now?

It's hard, I know, to realize that you've done a bad job for years, and harder still to think of the consequences (and yeah, if the press hadn't been so blasted biased, Gore would have been elected... oh. He was, wasn't he? Then maybe the Supreme Court wouldn't have felt emboldened to interfere in an election). But the solution is realizing where and why you went wrong-- not blaming the people who remind you there's a reality out there. And yeah, Joe, in that reality, unfortunately there really are young men who have lost their limbs in this war you thought might be really cool. You need to be reminded of that, so that next time you blithely talk about a war, you remember that real people-- young people-- suffer so that you can think you're in with the cool guys.

Time, how about hiring some real thoughtful types who don't shift with the wind because they're interested in facts and evidence and not what Paris Hilton thinks is cool?

If this blog begins to clue Mr Klein in to the degree to which he and the entire punditocracy are held in contempt by politically aware and informed Americans, then it has served a purpose.

Apart from that, not so much.

Dear Joke Line,

Blow it out your fucking ass.

Very truly yours...

Dear Mr. Klein,

If you had any sense of honer and decency, you would stick a gun in your mouth, aim towards your brain, and pull the trigger.

Sincerely,

Hmm, make that "honor."

Jeez, "A Reader," that's going too far. Anger is perfectly understandable, but let's leave some lines drawn, OK?

"I, as many other centrist believe, he was a tyrant who was the central destablizing force in the region, and the best chance at change."

Sorry Ron, but advocating preventive war (the "I thought he was going to hit me so I hit him back first" school of foreign policy) is NOT and never has been a "centrist" position. It is a radical departure from American tradition and international law and custom for at almost 60 years now.

Mr. Klein, I hope you will take your reader's advice, vitriol aside, and start paying more attention to the real world and less to the official spin.

Regards

A Hermit

A Reader,
You are despicable.

A Reader:

You are the kind of pinhead who gives the Joe Kleins of the world ammunition for their dismissive attitude to the rest of us.

Please don't do that. You're not helping.

Regards

A Hermit

It is true that the original point has been somewhat lost. It's not about whether Klein is a hypocrite, a fool, a bully, and an embarrassment. He is, but that's not the point. The point, and the original emailer made it very well, is that HE'S A FREAKING ENABLER and he (along with a great many of his obscenely well paid brethren) OWES A LOT OF APOLOGIES to a whole bunch of guys and gals missing limbs, eyes, faces, parts of their skulls, etc.

It's not an attack if it's true.

"As for the dopey denoument--Henceforth, any and all ad hominem "pundit scum" arguments will be automatically ignored."

All readers should, of course, take very seriously any ad hominem arguments posted by Joe and this fellow swamplanders directed against the dirty hippies of the blogosphere.

The mind frickin' boggles.

Joe--can you please post some substance, and get us out of this horrible ad hominem mess we're in.

"You want to make an onanistic fool of yourself ..."

This, from a blogger? Amusing.

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