Good Point

Joe--

Stop with the self-pity routine and address Glenn's points directly. You engaged in this argument, now carry it through. That's what good blogging is all about.

MXH

Mr. Klein,
>My reporting--flawed as it may be, since I'm a member of the mainstream media

Thank you.
This is a good start.
I look forward to, perhaps before the weekend, a professionally courteous response to Mr. Greenwald correcting your misreading of his posting re: Mr. Broder.

As an added bonus, maybe Citizen Stengel can be brought in, out of the off-stage shadows, as a guest blogger as Mr. Kinsley was recently.

Excellent post here Joe. Is there a petition we can sign? What can we do to honor the service and integrity of General Batiste. He's a genuine hero to me.

Pretty amazing. Supporting the surge or expressing no opinion is OK with CBS. But if you oppose it you're fired. Wow. Our so-called liberal media at work.

My reporting--flawed as it may be, since I'm a member of the mainstream media--indicates that the leaders of the uniformed military are closer to Batiste's position than to O'Hanlon'

...and which one got fired? That's the whole point about the "mainstream media". Michael O'Hanlon, David Broder, David Ignatius, Thomas Friedman... all perceived as "centrists"; all wrong from virtually day one, all members in good standing of the Sacred and Sanctimonius Brotherhood of the Reasonable and non-Vituperative and un-Vitriolic; all to be found on my TeeVee on a regular basis, their records notwithstanding.

To say nothing of your pal Bill Kristol, whom you're glad is on board at Time because, even though the policies he's advocated for five years have resulted in pointless carnage while making the country less safe, he's just so darn pleasant about it!

"My reporting--flawed as it may be, since I'm a member of the mainstream media--"

Once again a willfully false characterization of what your critics have said.

I can appreciate humorous self-deprecation if that's what this is.

But if you still think that people criticize your reporting simply on the basis of your professional affiliation, please pay closer and more careful attention to what they're actually saying.

It's easy to dismiss critics if they're making b.s. ad hominem charges. But not if they're evaluating the soundness of journalistic procedure with appropriate claims and evidence.

And what about Bob Novak, who is, unexplainably, still employed (to say nothing of not being in jail). If a liberal columnist had done what he did, would he still be working?

The fairness doctrine must be re-instated for public airwaves. This firing illustrates a strong partisan bias of CBS News.

Nobody likes a whiner, Joe.

Thanks, Joe. You're right on about this.

Amazing about Batiste.

Not amazing -- martyr Klein's self-pitying wise crack.

Doesn't Joe realize it's not about his professional affiliations, but about his work product?

(It's improved to date, btw).

Mr. Klein,
Maybe make a quick call to Citizen Stengel to suggest Gen. Batiste guest-blog at Swampland, too.

I see ThinkProgress has got some further comments out of CBS. Apparently, their concern is that Batiste may be perceived as anti-Bush. Sure they were some mitigating factors. Batiste is a "diehard Republican" and has -- much as Joe commented -- "nothing but absolute support" from his military colleagues. But still, not good enough for CBS. Ya gotta be solidly pro-Bush or quiet, those are your choices if you want a mike at CBS.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/05/11/batiste-cbs-update/

Mr. Klein:

I'm a daily reader and big fan of Greenwald, but I'll offer a modest defense of you here. I take it you were gallantly taking the side of a friend in defending Broder, so I think an extended debate on this particular "middle America" conceit is a waste of time for both parties.

That said, stop defending Broder. He has dropped his mask of empyrean observer and is making sloppy, peevish, partisan attacks on Democrats lately.

A propos Batiste --

FAIR did an analysis of tv coverage of the Iraq invasion in 2003 and actually rater CBS news worse than FOX for propaganda content.

What brendan said. Those are exactly my thoughts on the Broder matter also.

Ok, Joe how should a reporter/pundit who is concerned about the First Amendment Rights carrying responsibilities respond to the obvious 'stiffle' here.

For starters how about the pro-Bush guests for 'Military Spouse Day'. Naw, skip that piece of propaganda. Next idea, start on a rant about the 'patriot police'. Nope, too many hot button responses possible.

For consideration, what is more imminently more 'Timely' Iraq or Presidential Candidates? I pick Iraq.

Where have all the Officers gone? Now, we can add Maj. Gen. Mixon to the list that would include Yingling. Do you suppose a Top 100 story of those who chosen to speak out. Who is saying what, who said what when, and what their jobs are/were (Grange on CNN has a need for two disclaimers) now would be of extreme interest and add some knowledge base to the mostly uninformed discussion.

Me thinks, the totality of the silenced or muffled Military voice is a story that would have impact. This should include those who have spoken out on the subject of readiness.

What comes to mind quickly is Barbara Ann Starr reporting from the Pentagon, followed by McIntyre putting out the 'Army meets recruitment goals for 23 straight months' with a caveat of re-ups making the day. How about a discussion of the Mental Accessment that was just done showing the Army's shortfall in this area. Or what are the 're-enlistment' bonuses?

Just on my agreeing with brendan. My instinct here is that you have a certain loyalty/friendship to Broder which I respect at a certain level, notwithstanding the fact that I think Broder is usually wrong and a negative influence on our public discourse.

Commenter Jan had this on Greg Sargent's original post:

"I tried to contact CBS myself to comment and was passed from place to place. Finally I was able to leave a voice mail.
I encourage readers to make a phone call and express their opinion.
It's CBS Viewer Services and the number is 212-975-4321."

If CBS wants to be consistent, (which is debatable), the options seem pretty clear - rehire Gen. Batiste or fire Michael O'Hanlon.

"I can appreciate humorous self-deprecation if that's what this is."

No, it's pissy, passive-aggressive whining masquerading as self-deprecating humor.

Oh, Joe - the passive-aggressive whimpering thang is, like, so gauche. Dry up and take it like a man.

Joe,

Here you are Right! Good job. But some things still need to be done better.

What we have here is a failure....a failure to communicate. Americans are getting dumber, because the MSM is in some sort of jockeying war to out-American the other network. It is almost as if they are trying to start another war and perpetuate the current conflict for ratings and their corporate benefactors. Why?

The love of money is the root of all evil. This is why we complain when MSM types go to D.C. get all chummy and start to believe their own hype. This is why we complain when GE and CBS have aligned their interests to the downside of the country. What we have is the dumbing down of America. Objective, rational viewpoints are squelched at every turn from CNN to FOX to CBS. Some types on MSNBC and NBC are no better.

See here:
http://www.populistamerica.com/ the_dumbing_down_of_the_american_mind

Mr. Klein,

Off topic, but reminded me of you. The Treasury Dept. is investigating Michael Moore, whom a few weeks ago you declared "despicable" for his Cuba trip with 9-11 first responders. Does the administration's action alter your view of Moore in any way?

Joe Klein alleges: "My reporting--flawed as it may be, since I'm a member of the mainstream media--indicates that the leaders of the uniformed military are closer to Batiste's position than to O'Hanlon's."

Hahahahahaha. Joe Klein and every other militant leftist kook, freak and useful idiot of what Klein calls "the mainstream media" don't know anyone in the U.S. military despite their repeated, unsubstantiated claims that they do. Also, will Klein be providing any evidence to support his unsubstantiated allegation that "the leaders of the uniformed military are closer to Batiste's position ..."? I'll bet my last penny that Klein can't identify a single "leader" of the U.S. military who supports the Klein/Batiste/Cindy Sheehan/Murtha/Al Qaeda/Democrat party position.

The greatest source of controversy we've been experiencing lately is that that the center of public opinion has veered sharply in the antiwar direction while the "center" of the media is still lurching about in a non-existent compromise position.

This characterizes both the problems between the General and CBS and the problems between Mr. Broder and Mr. Greenwald. I don't see this resolving itself anytime soon, but it would be nice if you folks at Time took notice and recognized it for what it is.

Oh come on Reality Check et al. re "humorous self-deprecation". Give the guy a break. It's light-hearted. Sure, it's intended ironically so if you want you can say it's only sorta self-deprecating. So what? This is a good post. Call Klein on his real gaffes not silly stuff.

CBS has been extremely timid ever since the Rather stuff. That "Bias" book didn't help either. It's sad--just as we're saddened by Stengel's willful ignoring of big stories that reflect badly on the GOP like the massively expanding Attorney scandals, email deletions, and the fake voter fraud investigations.

"I'll bet my last penny that Klein can't identify a single "leader" of the U.S. military who supports the Klein/Batiste/Cindy Sheehan/Murtha/Al Qaeda/Democrat party position."

Yeah, TomE, all the military leaders who dissent with Bush are fired or forced into retirement. Think of how hard it's been for him to find a "war tzar" because no one wants to take the blame for his disaster.

The next person to be fired will probably be Gen. Petreaus for shamelessly avocating against torturing detainees and other illegal acts.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/images/blogs/news_blog/Values%20Message.pdf

Why doesn't he support the troops? Why isn't he willing to do what's necessary to win the War on Terror? Why does he hate America? Why does he want the terrorists to win? If only he were a "real" man like Dick Cheney and George W. Bush. Sigh.

Did CBS actually say that about Battiste being perceived as anti-Bush?

Would they fire a general who strongly disagreed with John Edward's position because he could be perceived as being anti-Democratic?

What a steaming pile of caca. If I watched any CBS shows I would immediately stop tuning into that network.

That this sort of stuff went on -- as we're increasingly learning -- in the lead up to the Iraq War is one thing. But that much of the media still wants to do this, now that the War in Iraq has been discredited and Bush is wildly unpopular, is really quite remarkable.

Of course, doing whatever you can to prop up a war and an administration are still a betrayal of journalism and the public trust when the President is popular. It's just more understandable.

Tom,

Way to substantiate your accusation (and name-calling)with specifics. You done good; go get yer cookie.

Another Joe

Mr. klien be polite and please respond to Greenwalds valid points. I just called and lodged a compliant with CBS, thanks for the #. What has the so called free press come to when a TV analyst is not free to offer his opinion? General John Batiste (A republican mind you) should not have to be penalized for offering up his expert opinion on this ill-conceived war which continues to claim too many lives and for what? More angry jehadists that hate America and the west. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It’s like we're in the middle ages burning books and not bathing. I will boycott CBS until they apologize to, and or reinstate Batiste. vie la revolution !!!

CBS apparently is still recovering from the Great Kerning Scandal of '04.

Katie Couric (or her producers) invented a whole segment designed, as near as anyone can tell, to give rightwingers three minutes of unanswered free-time on the air, for everyone who found Katie's coverage of Republicans too hard-hitting, like her interview with Condi Rice ("this lady is scary smart!... let's talk about boys!")

Outrageous? I dunno, I'd call it a disgrace.

"...flawed as it may be..."

I agree with those who say to give Klein a break. It may be a backhanded acknowledgment of criticism, but it's an acknowledgment.

And the fact that the firing of Gen. Batiste is getting MSM play, even just MSM blog play, is a very hopeful sign. If Klein, as a member of the MSM, can be gently nudged into producing fair, accurate, well-supported stories, he may just turn out to be an asset in the effort to generate an informed public debate.

CBS isn't for the war because they believe in freeing Iraqis from the chains of their oppression. War is good for business, it keeps people glued to the tube.
QED.

CBS could have a legitimate argument if it took the time to articulate it clearly. VoteVets has actively advocated against specific elected officials facing re-election. If CBS wants to draw a line there, I think that's an arguably responsible position to take. However, it means they'd better make DAMNED SURE they are being absolutely consistent about this with all of their "consultants." And the outside press should now consider it an obligation to check up on that.

A. Joe

Joe, you may not be up to speed with your audience 100% yet, but I think you're making an honorable attempt. Not that I disagree with Glenn Greenwald's criticisms of David Broder. I agree completely.

This was a good post. An important thing to highlight that might get pushed under the rug. The next step is to include, on the front page of such a post, CBS's phone number for feedback.

It's not a partisan issue: CBS should not be firing analysts for political advocacy until the day after Fox axes Sean Hannity.

"CBS could have a legitimate argument if it took the time to articulate it clearly. VoteVets has actively advocated against specific elected officials facing re-election"

but even then they'd have to be consistent, and they're not:

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/05/11/wallace-mccain/

Joe, are you going to have the professional courtesy to make a response to Glen Greenwald? I hope you're not waiting until Friday afternoon or evening to respond, like the White House releasing damaging news?

Joe, I think your reporting is fine- it's your punditry that some of us have a problem with.

Not in this case, however. You are correct, it IS an outrage, the latest of dozens upon dozens, battalions of outrages. We live in outrageous times. Generations to come will wonder where our sense of outrage went...

Isn't it about time for Jay to pop out of his hole again? "Gonzalez Agonistes" is just hanging there, waiting for him...

Joe, nice to hear a few words of humility from you. Sounded sincere to me...You should read Paul Eaton's letter to Bush following his veto statement.

http://www.votevets.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=249&Itemid=16

I know I postd this link about 10 days ago, but I really think we need to ram this "must listen to our military people" crap that Bush and his republican cohorts spout down their throats.

Hey CBS fired Imus too.

"Posted by rev_cletus
May 11, 2007
Oh, Joe - the passive-aggressive whimpering thang is, like, so gauche. Dry up and take it like a man."

I can just picture you eating doritos in your parents' basement as you typed that. Grow up and cut the kneejerk responses to every Klein post.

Joe,
I agree that it is outrageous for CBS to fire Batiste. (Mark that one on the wall! :O)

This was announced last night by Keith Olbermann, and Batiste was on his show.

I recall before the 2004 election, I think, that Sumner Redstone, president of Viacom (I think), was on a C-Span program of some type and declared he was a registered Democrat, but he voted for George W. Bush because he was good for business.
Seems Richard Perle declared he was a registered Democrat too on a PBS program recently.

Correction to Josh Marshall's posting. Batiste says he is NOT anti-war.

Shame on CBS! btw, I haven't watched CBS for years and years because Dan Rather talked daily about El Nino for what seemed like months.

"...flawed as it may be..."

Interviewing, as you've done, a number of high-ranking military folks and drawing cautious generalizations as to what "the military leadership" thinks, is sound.

Interviewing a handful of citizens and generalizing as to what "Americans" think, without reference to any polling data, is lazy and misleading.

This is because scientific polling is more reliable when getting at what 300 million people think than what a relatively small handful of leaders think.

Hope this helps!

CBS has a different problem with Nicolle Wallace. They should have been absolutely clear about her past and current relationships. That's something that ALL news organizations are extraordinarily poor at. Having Wallace on as an "objective conservative" is outrageous, and they should be called out for it.
But it's a seperate issue from independently appearing on behalf of a PAC such as VoteVets. There's a line that can be drawn here, but as I said earlier, they are under absolute obligation to ensure--and demonstrate--that they are being absolutely consistent about this. The Wallace situation is a serious problem, just a different one.

A. Joe

this is an odd predicament. plenty of people who are in essence advocates for the surge or for the bush administration -- figures like CNN's Beck or Fox's Kristol or msnbc's buchanan -- are on some sort of retainer as a consultant/commentator. so it's not as if advocates dont get to act as commentators. what makes this case different? the fact that he's a military man? he's not a pol., like say wesley clark. but he is an activist. it seems to me it's an error to have activists of any kind acting as news consultants. but the line is very blurry and seems to shift all the time. i suppose what they do need are very specific guidelines that are applied unilaterally.

Yes Palooka Joe, your writing would be percieved as being so much better if only you weren't a member of the "MSM." Nobody would read it and it would, in fact, be just as foolishly thoughtless, dishonest, and -- one of your favorite words here -- banal as it is now, but it must be comforting to console yourself with that particular delusion.

By the way, I read your piece on Hillary. I bet you wracked up quite the dentist's bill from all the teeth grinding you did while resisting the urge to slip back into the old patterns, the "calculating, consultant-driven" stuff that you used to type out every time you wrote about Hillary. Worse than the notional dentist's bill for you would have been the fact that it took longer than 10 minutes to write the thing, without the old, ready-made constructs at your disposal. *That* must have really hurt. There was still the use of language ("Clinton's flagrant competence is her dominant personality trait." Right), but overall it was a step above your usual dreck recycled from the past two presidential cycles.

erm.... did it occur to anyone that the difference might simply be that Batiste engaged in what could arguably (and logically) a "partisan" effort -- surely, not consistent with journalistic ethics -- and O'Hanlon has simply presented his opinions, as an expert analyst, in a non-partisan mode?

I may or may not be sympathetic to either Batiste or O'Hanlon's POV, but clearly I can see a distinction here.

As for Broder or other issues, I don't know. But this one IS a "slam dunk".

"erm.... did it occur to anyone that the difference might simply be that Batiste engaged in what could arguably (and logically) a "partisan" effort -- surely, not consistent with journalistic ethics -- and O'Hanlon has simply presented his opinions, as an expert analyst, in a non-partisan mode?"

So... anyone who disagrees with the Princeling is automatically "partisan"? and anyone who disagrees with him is "non-partisan"? Some people might think a retired major general and lifelong registered Republican might be exempt from accusations of partisanship for giving his opinion, his "expert analysis", to use your words, about a military operation.

Why don't you try finding out the facts and giving it some more thought?

When even a pampered Time-Warner pet like Joe Klein can smell the bull****, you know the corporate media sewer is close to backing up.

So, it's ok to have a far left wing political hack on the payroll at CBS?

"-flawed as it may be, since I'm a member of the mainstream media"

No, Joe, the flaws are in your content, not in your membership. Charlie Savage is a fine MSM representative. This is not about the MSM per se. It's about bad, dishonest reporting in the MSM. We don't want you to go away. We want you to stop running columns that aren't true.

Now it's true that for every hard working Pincus there seem to be a dozen idiotic gasbags, which is why this MSM characterization exists. And, of course, there's also the gatekeepers at the editorial desk and in the front office--firing Baptiste tells us a lot about how fair and balanced CBS is in presenting military analysis about Iraq. Note that that it's not merely "outrageous." It illustrates the point that we're making--that anything outside of a center-right continuum is not open for discussion. Look at Gravel's debate content. He didn't say a single thing that wasn't arguably true, that doesn't belong in a discussion of American foreign policy in an environment with no enemies--and he didn't even get mentioned in your Annapolis session. Do you ever wonder why Bill Kristol, wrong about everything, has a column in a newsweekly while Scott Ritter, right about everything, is on wacky lefty rags?

That's not just you. That's your bosses.

And it's also true that you have the misfortune (in our minds the good judgment) to open up this discussion. Do yourself a favor. Listen.

So stop whining and listen to what we're saying. It's thoughtful. It's substantive. Some of it is even well-written.

Joe:

Very helpful post. I may disagree with you from time to time but the fact that you engage works for me. I am willing to be persuaded just I am open to Glenn Greenwald's excellent posts. To repeat: thanks for engaging. Remain engaged and we will all benefit.

Update from CBS: http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/publiceye/main500486.shtml

"General Batiste took part in a commercial that’s being shown on television to raise money for veterans against the war," [CBS News Vice President, Standards and Special Projects Linda Mason] said. "It isn’t just that he took an advocacy position."

Having watched said commercial, it's clear that the ad John Batiste took part in is NOT a fund-raising commercial, and it IS an advocacy commercial. It's ridiculous that CBS thinks they can cover up this incompetence with some easily disproved lie. How Joe Kleinian can you get?

Aaron: CNN is trying to outdo CBS. They just had the Heritage Foundation on to 'splain the National Guard Equipment situation. OMG That doesn't even compute.

Well, at least Barbara Ann Starr has quit talking about the poop bombs and McIntyre did admit that Maj. Gen. Mixon's request for more troops can not be fulfilled unless the 'surge' troops coming into Baghdad are moved to Diyala. Oops, now were going to talk the Iranian Border after ignoring it for how long.

Somebody tell Blitzer that we aren't as dumb and blind as he is. We can actually go to the internets and googley it.

Good post Joe. If they would just give David Brooks a comment section we could stop chewing on you in frustration.

Joe, you got this one right.

Dang this dude is whiny for a guy with a beard.

whine away, you baby. Or grow up. Your choice.

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/51730/

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/51572/

Thoughts?

What conclusion(s) do you draw from this?".

Is it inconsistent with other hirees of CBS?

Are there other examples of this?

Maybe there is a column for the MSM to publish.

Dear Mr. Klein,

Please give more weight to the theory that many liberal bloggers criticise you because they actually believe that you can do the better job that they want you to do. No one in the liberal blogosphere believes Instapundit or Drudge can do actual reporting or offer opinions of any depth. Many think you can but just aren't for whatever reason.

Any writer writes to his readers. His perceived idea of his readers. Perhaps your perception has been wrong; perhaps blogs offer you the ability to better understand your readers?

Just a thought.

PS If you're ever in Ireland you're welcome to drown your sorrows over a few pints.

"My reporting--flawed as it may be, since I'm a member of the mainstream media-"

Gawdalmighty, what a baby you are, Joe Klein. Pathetic.

It is unfortunate that individuals in this day and age and in this great country are unable to express themselves without suffering major consequences. This country has always allowed anyone regardless of their statuts or background to be able to speak their mind. This situation in not too disimilar from a situation that occurred to John Hermina, an attorney. John Hermina is a civil rights attorney who perhaps spend 1/3 of his time helping the disadvantage. I was one of them. Yet Mr. Hermina spoke and did not allow a miscarriage of justice to occur. It is a good point to consider and support people like Kline and John Hermina.

Joe, don't miss amberglow's great catch:

http://www.blogactive.com/2007/05/not-just-one-voter-in-question-at-rep.html

Hey Joe. It's the Ghost of Joe Klein Past.

I've traveled here from last week to remind you of what you promised.

In direct response to your request, Greenwald gave you a list of specific examples of Broder's defective "reporting." Are you still happy to admit when you were factually incorrent?

Hm, the mainstream media includes Walter Pincus, Dana Priest, Paul Krugman, Sy Hersh, and numerous others. We don't attack their work. Do you want to know why that is? It's nothing to do with whether they are "anti-Bush". It's to do with whether they are reasonably reliable reporters of the facts.

I thought this was a great metaphor, by the way:
http://atrios.blogspot.com/2007_05_13_archive.html#8680243692065221090

(It's also some great music.)

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