May 27, 2007 11:14
The Iraq Conundrum
Two extremely important, and contradictory, pieces about Iraq today. Both true.
Andrew Bacevich on the combat death of his son in the Washington Post.
A variety of experts in the US and Iraq on the difficulty of a withdrawal now in the New York Times
Bacevich:
The people have spoken, and nothing of substance has changed. The November 2006 midterm elections signified an unambiguous repudiation of the policies that landed us in our present predicament. But half a year later, the war continues, with no end in sight. Indeed, by sending more troops to Iraq (and by extending the tours of those, like my son, who were already there), Bush has signaled his complete disregard for what was once quaintly referred to as "the will of the people."
And this:
Memorial Day orators will say that a G.I.'s life is priceless. Don't believe it. I know what value the U.S. government assigns to a soldier's life: I've been handed the check. It's roughly what the Yankees will pay Roger Clemens per inning once he starts pitching next month.
And then, there's Anthony Zinni, a former general and a war opponent from the start:
“When we are in Iraq we are in many ways containing the violence,” he said. “If we back off we give it more room to breathe, and it may metastasize in some way and become a regional problem. We don’t have to be there at the same force level, but it is a five- to seven-year process to get any reasonable stability in Iraq.”
And finally, Salim Abdullah, an Iraqi Sunni:
"Many militias and terrorist groups are just waiting for the Americans to leave,” said Salim Abdullah, the spokesman for the Iraqi Accordance Front, the largest Sunni Arab group in the Parliament, who lost two brothers this year to attacks by insurgents.“This does not mean the presence of American troops in Baghdad is our favorite option,” he said. “People in the street say the United States is part of the chaos here and they could have made it better and safer. Still, we need America to make the country more stable and not leave Iraq in the trouble, which they, themselves, have caused.”
Truly a problem from hell, caused--fecklessly, thoughtlessly, entirely--by George W. Bush. Happy Memorial Day, Mr. President.
About Swampland
Ana Marie Cox is the founding editor of Wonkette and the author of the novel Dog Days. Read more
Joe Klein is TIME's political columnist and author of six books, most recently Politics Lost. Read more
Karen Tumulty is TIME's National Political Correspondent and has also covered the White House and Congress. Read more
Jay Carney is TIME's Washington bureau chief. He has covered the Clinton and Bush 43 White Houses as well as Congress. Read more
Jay Newton-Small has covered the Bush 43 White House and Congress since the DeLay era. Read more
Michael Scherer is a TIME Washington bureau correspondent covering the 2008 presidential campaign. Read more
Mike Murphy is a GOP consultant and was a senior strategist for John McCain's 2000 presidential campaign. Read more
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Reader Comments
Posted by Derek
May 27, 2007
The world will practically come to an end if we leave Iraq. There is too much at stake. It will mean victory for AQ if we leave.
However, if the Iraqi tell us to leave we will be out of there faster than sh*t through a goose (I'm sure there is no contradiction here.)
I don't know how the Iraqi people ever survived for the first 6,000 years of their life, without our help?
Posted by Florida
May 27, 2007
"Truly a problem from hell, caused--fecklessly, thoughtlessly, entirely--by George W. Bush."
I would add to that sentence, "and the press corp which breathlessly cheerleaded the way to war and never bothered to ask questions as to why."
Excluding McClatchey's, of course.
Posted by Nathan Barczewski
May 27, 2007
"Truly a problem from hell, caused--fecklessly, thoughtlessly, entirely--by George W. Bush. Happy Memorial Day, Mr. President."
Aided and abetted by gutless pukes like you, Mr. Klein. Reporters who fail to report the truth to the people, and columnists and editorial boards that fail to tell truth to power. Sycophants who preen and posture in the Beltway while the rest of the country has to deal with this damned war, Katrina, devastating poverty and a health care system in shambles. Happy Memorial Day to you too, Mr. Klein, hope you have a nice break from Obama Vs. Hillary process stories and articles about how liberals are weak on defense and hate the troops.
Posted by Derek
May 27, 2007
By voting to continue to fund this war, in direct contradiction of the public will, and what they said they were going to do, this is also the Democrat's war now.
Posted by Nathan Barczewski
May 27, 2007
"Truly a problem from hell, caused--fecklessly, thoughtlessly, entirely--by George W. Bush. Happy Memorial Day, Mr. President."
Aided and abetted by gutless pukes like you, Mr. Klein. Reporters who fail to report the truth to the people, and columnists and editorial boards that fail to tell truth to power. Sycophants who preen and posture in the Beltway while the rest of the country has to deal with this damned war, Katrina, devastating poverty and a health care system in shambles. Happy Memorial Day to you too, Mr. Klein, hope you have a nice break from Obama Vs. Hillary process stories and articles about how liberals are weak on defense and hate the troops.
Posted by Independent
May 27, 2007
If we have to continue every one of George W. Bush's misguided policies because discontinuing them would harm someone, then we have to continue cutting the taxes of the very rich till the country is bankrupt; continue polluting the atmosphere till the planet is inhabitable; and continue chasing the elusive 'enemy' in Iraq till we have no functioning army left.
Posted by James, Los Angeles
May 27, 2007
~"Still, we need America to make the country more stable and not leave Iraq in the trouble, which they, themselves, have caused.”~
The thing is, there isn't a chance in hell that the wholly and profoundly incompetent Bush Administration is capable of improving the situation one iota.
I myself, a complete nobody whose only qualification is that I read the newspaper, knew without a shred of doubt that this bunch was lying about WMD -- yes, even Powell -- but, even if that certainty was proved wrong, that this administration was so profoundly incompetent that it was incapable of conducting an operation of this size with a modicum of success. In other words, even if they were right, they'd find a way to fork it up, irretreivably. It was obvious in every respect for everything they had attempted until that time. And I don't take any satisfaction whatsoever in being correct. And I hold the same position today. I am baffled at why any American at this point can think otherwise.
BTW, your #5 below assessment was right on:
~If there was ever any lingering doubt about whether the White House might finally be considering a redeployment, Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol put those hopes to bed this morning on Fox News. He revealed that Bush is “furious” over the NYT report and that the White House is aggressively pushing back on the story over the Memorial Day weekend.~
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/05/27/bush-furious-nyt-report/
Posted by John
May 27, 2007
The others beat me to the punch, but it bears repeating: You can't lay all the blame on George W. Bush when folsk in the media -- very notably including you, Joe Klein -- gave him cover. Man up.
Posted by Dr Rick
May 27, 2007
Joe Klein wrote:
"Truly a problem from hell, caused--fecklessly, thoughtlessly, entirely--by George W. Bush. Happy Memorial Day, Mr. President."
Bush could not have misled America into its "problem from hell" without people like Joe Klein and companies like Time-Warner.
Posted by klyde
May 27, 2007
How do people like joke line sleep at night?
Posted by Anonymous
May 27, 2007
They drink until they pass out.
Posted by DonB
May 27, 2007
Andrew Bacevich piece is heartbreaking. To get a true picture you have to multiply Andrew Bacevich by the tens of thousands. That is how many parents are grieving in USA and Iraq.
He is right when he says nobody cares about the troops. Or the flight of Iraqis getting blown up or forced into regufee status by the millions. The so called "debate" is not about them but about the politics of it. Can Bush drag it out till 2009? Can the GOP recover? Who wins the funding issue? The actual victims, dying and suffering, are just props on a chessboard.
Posted by nfox
May 27, 2007
At the core of his piece Prof Bacevich demonstrated honesty, integrity and realism. He has paid a price as have thousands of families who mourn their loved ones who have died in Iraq and deal with their wounded every day.
Set this off against the Decider who is great at making tough statements, spouting often incoherent drivel and using intelligence in ways that show that he has none.
I can only pray for our dead and share the sadness which many must be feeling this week end, and light a candle. This is so bloody frustrating.
Posted by Joe Klein's conscience
May 27, 2007
Joe,
Vietnam fell apart as well when we left, right?
Posted by Zippy
May 27, 2007
I can't even begin to imagine what the Bacevich family is going through right now.
Maybe we should all leave the politics, the finger pointing behind us this weekend and focus on why we have a holiday Monday: to honor those who have served, been wounded, or died for this country.
Posted by Roger
May 27, 2007
"Truly a problem from hell, caused--fecklessly, thoughtlessly, entirely--by George W. Bush. Happy Memorial Day, Mr. President."
Hardly entirely. He had a whole heck of a lot of enables, including many in the MSM. Yes, even including you, Joe.
Posted by dave
May 27, 2007
Via Huffington Post:
"Klein on Meet the Press in February 2003: 'This is a really tough decision. War may well be the right decision at this point. In fact, I think it--it's--it-it probably is.' When Tim Russert presses Klein on why he thinks Iraq is 'the right war,' Klein responds, 'Because sooner or later, this guy has to be taken out. Saddam has -- Saddam Hussein has to be taken out... The message has to be sent because if it isn't sent now, if we don't do this now, it empowers every would-be Saddam out there and every would-be terrorist out there.'"
The blood's on your hands, Joke. Enjoy!
Posted by ama
May 27, 2007
From Andrew J. Bacevich's Op-Ed:
"Among the hundreds of messages that my wife and I have received, two bore directly on this question. Both held me personally culpable, insisting that my public opposition to the war had provided aid and comfort to the enemy. Each said that my son's death came as a direct result of my antiwar writings.
"This may seem a vile accusation to lay against a grieving father. But in fact, it has become a staple of American political discourse, repeated endlessly by those keen to allow President Bush a free hand in waging his war. By encouraging "the terrorists," opponents of the Iraq conflict increase the risk to U.S. troops. Although the First Amendment protects antiwar critics from being tried for treason, it provides no protection for the hardly less serious charge of failing to support the troops -- today's civic equivalent of dereliction of duty."
I know there are quite a few Americans who feel strongly about those who protest our wars, and they say extremely vile things about them as well.
But people, such as the two who, among hundreds who wrote to Bacevich, blamed him and his anti-war activities for his son's death, strike me as among the most heartless and vilest of humans.
This man served his country during his generation’s war. His son served his country during this latest debacle and gave his life. Two generations of service to their country do NOT inoculate Mr. Bacevich from those who hate the First Amendment and those who exercise it. How demented must someone be to write to a parent who has just lost a child and blame that parent for the child's death? What sort of twisted mind wants to cause additional pain to an already grieving parent?
NO grieving parent deserves this kind of added
torment.
Posted by aimai
May 27, 2007
Mr. Klein,
If we take you at your word that you now *know*--not just believe-that this war is wrong, incompetently run, and doomed to failure by any metric can you let me know when you will be apologizing to the readers or auditors of your past work who were misled into believing that the war would be a good and necessary thing? I'll wait. No, really. I'll wait until you get back from posting up that mea culpa. You might want to consider resigning from the pundit corps, as well, until you actually learn something about the world you pretend to consider in your punditing.
Here. Here's a few dollars to tide you over until you get honest work.
aimai
Posted by res ipsa loquitur
May 27, 2007
I don't think I've ever seen a more dishonest use of the adverb "entirely."
Look at your quote from "Meet the Press" posted by dave upthread. That was just one of hundreds like it from cheerleading pundits like you (remember Richard Cohen's "Only a fool -- or possibly a Frenchman" gem of February 2003?) in the leadup to this debacle.
You really do have a lot of nerve.
Posted by Donna
May 27, 2007
What a vicious circle. Bush administration says we MUST invade Iraq as part of the War on Terror. Oops, our destablilizing invasion of Iraq has increased the terror in the world, so now we MUST occupy Iraq to contain the terror we evoked in that country, to NOW avoid destabilizing the region.
Well, if the Bush team really did invade in order to grab control of Iraqi oil resources, as early war critics warned, then, by golly, mission accomplished--we now have a perfect cover to have to stay there and occupy the oil-rich country, right?
It is too bad that the Bush team started building multiple permanent military bases in Iraq, not to mention building the largest embassy in the world in Baghdad, all planned early on with construction beginning before things got so unstable......that sort of puts the lie to original 'good intentions' for the war.
Darn those Iraqis, all they have to do is sign that oil law written by Americans, you know, the one that gives American oil companies control of Iraq's national treasure for the next thirty years.
So, Mr. Klein, if you want to redeem yourself for failure to do good journalism at the beginning of this vicious circle, maybe you could do an article about how the latest collusive war funding legislation is designed to put extreme pressure on the Iraqi government to sign over oil control to Americans. You might even point out how our media tends to skew the picture by limiting discussion of that oil law to what it means in 'sharing' revenues among Iraqis.
Posted by Anonymous
May 27, 2007
If we are anything like previous imperialists, who tried to bring democracy to Iraq, I imagine we will insist on keeping all the air rights to the country, as well as the oil rights.
Posted by Max Renn
May 27, 2007
Nathan Barczewski
May 27, 2007
is the man!
I have nothing really to add . . . except to say, Joe, that I also agree that the use of 'entirely' is garbage. Cheney, Rumsfeld, your friends Feith and Abrams (yes, peeps you hang with) are ALL responsible. Whether you call them 'Team B' or 'neo-cons,' it doesn't matter. And you own them, Mr. Klein.
Posted by linda
May 27, 2007
Ahhmen to Donna and Anony:)
To the Bavevich's my heartfelt sympathy in their loss. From a military mom who can support the troops without supporting the policies of my government.
From here, I would like to see something done that will get some results. Do we can keep playing the political games left over from the last 30 years, at least, and never get anything done?
Biden justifies a yes vote and says 'we don't have the votes'. He is probably right. Biden, do we have the votes to get a $40B supplemental to reequip the National Guard? Do we have the votes to get the Military-Intel strength with boots on the ground up to the level to do the tasks? Do we have the votes to mandate the end of all 'these contractors' doing a poor job at three or four times the actual cost? Do we have the votes to fix the flawed DoD-VA health care? Do we have the votes for defense contracts for needed equipment? Do we have the votes for boats that float for the Coast Guard? Yada? Give 'em a clean bill, one item at a time that says loud and clear "We Support the Troops".
On the cheap, cheep, cheep, baa, baa little chickens and sheep have been costly and the cost seems to go up daily.
My first thought is to fix the committee hearing system. The most recent fiasco of fundamental stupidity had to be Conyers and Monica. Pool the questions and build a case and get one person, the most able trial lawyer, from each party to do the questioning. The results might be productive, instead of polluting.
Then, I think of Rep. Rangel. Yup, the draft. Meaning that any time the Congress votes for 'war powers' that the draft is automatic.
Then, I think of the daily bombardment of Executive Branch pressers with the MSM dutifully in attendance. Oh, how easy to skew the news reinforced with 'think tankers' who have been bought and paid for.
Posted by zota
May 27, 2007
"caused--fecklessly, thoughtlessly, entirely--by George W. Bush."
How desperately you wish that were true.
What a sad little man you are...
Posted by mz
May 27, 2007
No Joe, happy Morial Day to YOU.
We are in Iraq because of YOU. Because you and the thoroughly corrupted and spineless cabal of pundits and so-called-journalists in DC enabled this Administration to lie us into that quagmire.
And we stay in Iraq, draining blood and treasure, because White House waterboys like you continue to cherry pick the opinion of 'experts' who insist we have to stay there forever -- ignoring the majority those experts who were right to begin with about the consequences of going into Iraq (and therefore have credibility) who say we are making the violence worse and things will only get eventually better after we leave (leaving, as Murtha says, enough resources in the area to manage regional stability).
Again, Joe Klein is an extremist who sides with the small minority of under-20% who want to prolong and deepen the Iraq disasater -- Joe assumes he's so much smarter and knows better than over two-thirds of the rabble (also known as a super-majority of voting, tax-paying decent Americans). Joe knows better than the vast majority of the experts who actually have a track record of being right about Iraq.
The blind arrogance and intellectual vacuity of our corrupted DC elites knowns no bounds.
Posted by Anonymous
May 27, 2007
Re: "entirely by George Bush"
Putting aside the MSM's disgusting complicity and abetting of Bush's actions, do you think Cheney, the PNAC or AEI had the teesiest bit to do with where we are now. Could they even have -- dare I even say it -- been pulling Dubya's strings?
Posted by Anonymous
May 27, 2007
Re: "entirely by George Bush"
Putting aside the MSM's disgusting complicity and abetting of Bush's actions, do you think Cheney, the PNAC or AEI had the teesiest bit to do with where we are now? Could they even have -- dare I even say it -- been pulling Dubya's strings?
Posted by mz
May 27, 2007
'Entirely'... Joe Klein is entirely not a mensch.
Posted by amberglow
May 27, 2007
"...If the Iraqi Parliament refuses to pass the privatization legislation, the US Congress will withhold US reconstruction funds promised to the Iraqis to rebuild what the United States has destroyed in Iraq. The privatization law, written by American oil company consultants hired by the Bush administration, would leave the control of only 17 of 80 known oil fields with the Iraq National Oil Company. The remainder (two-thirds) of known oil fields and all yet undiscovered oil fields would be up for grabs by the private oil companies of the world (but guess how many would go to the United States firms given to them by the compliant Iraqi government.)
No other nation in the Middle East has privatized its oil. ..." -- http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/22914
Posted by Anonymous
May 27, 2007
Joe.Joe.
Please go wash the blood off your hands!!
Hard to get off?
clown
Posted by Mr.Murder
May 27, 2007
One person questioning at a committee is what the republigoons want so they can attack the messenger. The fact remains that politization of the DoJ happened across the board. Thus it was a broad case of many urgent regional issues, issues each Rep. had a right to voice.
Two Reps. were given additional time by their peers in the Democratic ranks for exactly such a follow up, to the pointgoolding needed an additional recess to realize her own culpability and shield self, and avoid contempt at the same time regarding the role of others. Those given additional time include Rep.Davis of Alabama in closing. His additional interview to persons, journalists and bloggers in attendance, does evidence the fact that Democrats are listening to the constituency of the elecorate. The highlight of the day was the fact that the Congressional Black Caucus made the most of the hearing with relevant detail about the need to have Karl Rove appear in hearing. As well the conflict of evidence on record previous that Ms.Goodling contradicted her or other's testimony several times in the previous chronology.
Monica wasn't involved, but had authority to fire people, and didn't remember meetings but could plead the 5th based on her memory of events that could implicate herself, but would not agree to the compulsion of further testimony at times for the same reason.
So how many Regent graduates were CPA/AEI members?
You will not blame Democrats for funding this war when Bush is holding our troops hostage or hoists them as a banner of his loyalty in speaking appearances by placing them behind him under order and screened/vetted. He'd leave them out there to be collateral loss as a political tactic, one Karl Rove employed. Then they could be the next story, like Pvt.Jessica Lynch or Spc.Pat Tillman, who it turned out were falsely attributed events surrounding their harm. Remember how cameras followed the services of the fallen the first couple of months? Interviews with widows or parents of the fallen to try and connect America to the cause? Why the sudden gag order on that? How many days must we look at Jim Lehrer's solemn announcement of more dead? Only five to eight more years if Joe Kleins' criticism of Bush is approximated to his inaccurate conclusions about leaving Iraq. That's 7,400 more men and women lost at surge level casualties. That's 3,600-6,300 more at the previous deployment numbers. Add them to the running total, put in on Dubya's bar tab, since this war isn't authentically paid for, just floated on debtor notes. In either above case that's seven to eleven trillion short term debt, multiplied times ten counting interest. I guess the precedent of predatory creditors in the third world and at America(using ARM to cut the legs off our liquidity) can take full effect and we'll look like a third world despot where dollars dissappear and the vultures of bankruptcy move in from the IMF.
Back to the immediate situation. The war funding vote did help with the Iran talks. Pelosi's trip to Syria opened a door for Condi to meet in bilateral talks with Iran, after the bipartisan summit in Syria set just such a stage.
Does Bush have the balls to go with it? Is Condi competent enough to call upon diplomacy?
Iran can help us with Iraq, can help the world oil market stabilize twice over(ten bucks a gallon if we fight there), and can help Syria address their security concerns with southern Lebanon where the Trans Arabian Pipeline and coming Trans Iraqi Pipeline will converge.
TAP or TIP, pit or pat. Do you want to call process, and claim we must stay? If this is the case where is the strategy that AWOL Bush said Bill Clinton would have to have provided in the Balkans? How do you justify the foreign presence in a country you want to be free? Contractors are the largest private army, and probably do their share of helping advise the death squads all over Iraq.
You realize Baghdad was not a divided city under Saddam? It had Sunni/Shi'ite families, was rather educated for its per capita totals, and had an enourmous middle class. They even had their own version of Joe Klein. His was known as Baghdad Bob.
BTW, if you want to quote Zinni in support of continued presence, give us a link to the statement. It borders on being obtuse that you do not.
It was like you had an intern piece together the first part, and use it to introduce your own effort to stay the course after that.
Posted by linda
May 27, 2007
amberglow brings up the Iraqi Oil Deal, again. Joe, how about some real research on what is holding up the 'oil deal'. I've posted several links previously that address the foreign rights to Iraqi Oil.
Just curious, would the US occupation of Iraq go in a more positive direction if the 'deal' were changed to one more advantageous to the Iraqis (I don't mean the profit sharing aspect of it as Biden and others keep in front of the American public)? Could the 'weak, young' Iraqi government have a better chance to govern, if it wasn't seen as a puppet of Bush-Cheney? Of course, it could be hard to overcome the Oil Ministry Protectorate-Chalabi, foreign contractors taking Iraqi jobs history, but it could be a start toward a positive outcome.
Oh, and Joe, if you should chose to accept this mission, please do not start the column with who you like. And you really don't need a lot of anonymous sources, most of the information you need can be Googled.
Posted by Jimmy Crater, Liberal Genius
May 27, 2007
If FDR had had Bachevich and Zinnia around, we'd all be speaking German and smelling French.
Posted by Question Authority? QUESTION HILLARY.
May 27, 2007
CBS plans for Memorial Day 2007...
1. Re-up office subscriptions to Rolling Stone, Mother Jones, and The People's Daily.
2. Pit Iowa Guard & Reserve All-Star Mom Tag Team versus Andy Rooney, in annual Mother Of All Patriotic Mothers Slapping Around Fat Old Media Sacks Of Crap.
3. Buy Scott Pelly full set of actual balls.
4. Raise freshly starched Soviet flag over Black Rock to half-staff, in honor of the peaceful Iranian legal and prison systems.
5. Pay some more rejects from Al Jazeera to feign as cameramen for Al Sadr Inc., er, uh, Uncle Walter Reports.
6. Announce spin-off of CBS Evening News with Katie Couric to Comedy Channel.
7. Attempt to explain, again, why General Westmoreland still haunts the halls from which Dan Rather formerly photocopied bogus documents to the bogus John Kerry campaign on behalf of the bogus Kennedy legacy.
8. Tell their spoiled, whining, private schooled, gated community adult kids that the Pelosi Peace Dividend will be kicking in any veto override now.
9. Ignore own historic, documented ignoring of the UN's oil-for-EU scam, just like the Bilson's required for rights to their next French fiction of a Moliere novel.
10. Mistake opinion and conjecture for news and substance.
11. Re-affirm corporate policy to play up myopic corner Chavez Petrol Station propaganda of the moment.
12. Whatever Oliver Stone says, believe it and repeat it.
13. When you sneer, sneer like you know what you IS talking about.
14. After another issue of 60 Seconds accusing Bush alone of creating all new violence in Iraq, run back-to-back new episodes of CSI: New York.
15. Borrow Hollywood actors from PBS to embarrass troops, families, and other actual patriots, in back-to-back new episodes of CSI: New York.
16. Disregard DC union hacks screwing up for decades at Walter Reid. Blame some recent flag officer instead. Then scream ABU GHRAIB, ABU GHRAIB (six months after the DOD investigation was concluded). Then get drunk with Joe Klein.
17. Leave no Stone Phillips unturned to blow up chances for true peace and actual justice, wherever the push polls may lead.
18. When you lie, lie like you meant it on your Anonymous resume.
Posted by roger
May 27, 2007
Ah, a NYT article by Michael Gordon. The guy who bylined with Judith Miller about the aluminum tubes. The guy who recently started the laundry cycle of Bush propaganda about Iranian weapons in Iraq, which simply piped Bush propaganda in the face of weapons with English language inscriptions on them. The man whose article, linked to by Klein, makes a point that Iraqi politicians want the Americans to stay, while dancing around the point that the Iraqi parliament just voted a sense of the parliament petition for the american's to have a timetable for departing. I mean, the propaganda isn't even well crafted any more. Just handed out in big undigested gobs, and regurgitated by Klein. Sick and sorry.
Posted by NTodd
May 27, 2007
Perhaps there's another way:
http://www.paxamericana.net/
Posted by Mr.Murder
May 27, 2007
The aluminum tubes lies were part of a Berlesconi dirty deal.
They came up after the original Niger hoax was dispelled in back channels by the CIA and a former Ambassador's visit confirmed similar opinions matching the evaluation of a General who observed the material facts in the region, in accordance with the State Dep't, until Liz Cheney was promoted and overruled him in the Near East Dep't with the help of David Addington.
The Italian Air Force trained Iraq for conventional use rocketry using said tubes. It wasn't even part of any banned ordinance, and much of it was supplied with our help when Iran was a client state vs. Iran in a ground war that the USA backed both sides of with ordinance and logistics, during the contra scandal under Reagan.
Khadhim Mijbel(Iraqi offered expatriate status, who denied it at said time) disputed the tubes hoax as well. Excerpts of his testimony were selectively cherry picked and edited, out of context, to continue the case for war, as we later learned in the Downing Minutes.
Added to aluminum tubes ex post facto insertions with the Niger forgeries, were the nuclear missing well head penetrators destined for Nigeria via Halliburton subsidiary, which were sourced from Poland and sited plausibly by Putin's interests to bolster the war case. They were eventually found, and not in possession of Saddam for use in dirty bombs. They were mishandled in Europe, along with the many other nuclear items Putin has not accounted for since the Iron Curtain's fall, part of the deal was to concede that for him when he gave more false causis belli for the Iraq war to the discussion. The crumbling of Iraq would pressure regional refugee problems; crises that would help him dominate East Europe Energy markets and gain venture backing for his pipelines from the Oil stans. Because as conflict spread to the borders of neighbors it spilled Lebanon's way along with the Israel/Palestine problems which went unaddressed during the wartime push in our diplomatic channels.
So, Joe Klein cannot only reminisce about the war he helped facilitate in Iraq(over 600,000 dead, mostly civilians, plus three thousand plus of our troops and tens of thousands wounded) he can also celebrate 2 plus million refugees, problems in Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan(our allied help there hurt greatly) plus the collateral bloodshed of the Palestine and Lebanon conflicts with Israel that metastasized under the heat of tensions in the region.
Maybe all those places can send him a thank you note. He can reply that the increase in world terror since GWB started his war on terror may invite more readers to Time, and the country osama roams free continues to proliferate unabated whilst swaths of its country erupt in anti-government violence with the help of Taliban elements and their support.
Happy Memorial Day, "Say it ain't so" Joe.
Posted by Anonymous
May 28, 2007
Every time Joke Line puts his foot in his mouth, due to his half-assed work ethic, he immediately attempts to redeem himself by bashing Bush. Then again, it could be coincidence.
Posted by Anonymous
May 28, 2007
Shhhhhh! You're not supposed to notice that!
It does lend a certain multiple personality disorder vibe to his posts. I guess wildly swinging back and forth is a form of "centrism." Or something.
Posted by K. Ron Silkwood
May 28, 2007
You're a poltroon, Joke Line.
Posted by p_lukasiak
May 28, 2007
"Ah, a NYT article by Michael Gordon. The guy who bylined with Judith Miller about the aluminum tubes. The guy who recently started the laundry cycle of Bush propaganda about Iranian weapons in Iraq"
this is THE key point in reading the Times article.
There is a gaping hole in the piece --- absolutely no consideration is given to the fact that Iraq's neighbors want a stable Iraq -- the assumption of virtually everyone quoted by Gordon is that the US departure would result in a complete vacuum and consequently, chaos.
But what if the Syria was permitted to take over responsibility for security in the Sunni provinces? What if Iran did the same for the Shiite dominated provinces -- and a multi-national force from the Islamic world took over security duties in Baghdad itself?
It is the US presence in Iraq that sustains the insurgency -- get the US out, and nations like Syria and Iran will have no reason to want instability in Iraq. Both nations know that a stable Iraq with US troops means an Iraq that would become a staging area for attacks on those nations -- that means its in their own vital self-interest for Iraq to be unstable as long as there is a US troop presence in that county. Get the US out, and their vital interests change to creating a stable Iraq.
Posted by TomT
May 28, 2007
It's interesting how this allows pundits like Mr. Faith Based here to seem oh-so-serious. You see, Iraq is a serious issue, one that demands intellectually honesty.
We can't stay forever, but we shouldn't leave either. There's all kinds of stuff going on that you peons who have never been to Chinese sweatshops couldn't possibly understand. Michael Moore's movies oversimplify this. Yes, Jane Harman is thoughtful, but even she is conflicted.
It's a pundits' paradise -- so many ways to pontificate, so many ways to be a know it all, so many ways to be serious.
Posted by bartkid
May 28, 2007
Mr. Klein,
Sounds like a case for impeachment to me.
Posted by amberglow
May 28, 2007
“In 2003, 2004, 100 percent of the soldiers wanted to be here, to fight this war,” said Sgt. First Class David Moore, a self-described “conservative Texas Republican” and platoon sergeant who strongly advocates an American withdrawal. “Now, 95 percent of my platoon agrees with me.” -- http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003305.php
Posted by amberglow
May 28, 2007
David Brooks and Klein: both repeating the exact same lies about withdrawal. Why is that always the case? Why do all pundits repeat the same bull? -- "... Brooks incoherently argued, “The country wants to get out of Iraq, but they don’t want to get out precipitously. They want a managed withdrawal. The majority just isn’t there. So the majority in the Congress had to accede to those two realities.” ...
It’s unclear what point Brooks is trying to make. He either doesn’t understand what the American public wants or he doesn’t understand the timetable legislation.
Brooks’ own paper conducted a poll recently that found “sixty-three percent say the United States should set a date for withdrawing troops from Iraq sometime in 2008.” ..." -- http://thinkprogress.org/2007/05/26/brooks-incoherent/
Posted by Dr. Wu
May 28, 2007
"Truly a problem from hell, caused--fecklessly, thoughtlessly, entirely--by George W. Bush. Happy Memorial Day, Mr. President."
And enabled--incuriously, fawningly, stenographically--by you and your merry band of "serious" beltway cocktail-weenie addicts. Happy Memorial Day to you too, Mr. Klein.
Posted by mike
May 28, 2007
It is interesting how Mr. Klein does not seem to connect the elite media's failure to cover the run-up to this disastrous invasion properly, and the rise of the blogosphere.
Yes, I know, the blogosphere existed beforehand (touched off by Lewinsky idiocy and the 2000 election fiasco), but it was the astonishingly inept pre-Iraq/WMD "coverage" that caused it to explode.
It was crystal clear then that the media elites (and I have no real problem with the existence of media elites, as long as they function) completely failed to do their jobs.
Is there evidence they will improve?
Posted by Bell County Democrat
May 28, 2007
Mr. Klein:
During last week's press conference President Bush emphatically stated that we were in Iraq at the invitation of the Iraqi government, "a sovereign nation". Bush indicated that he hoped the Iraqi government would be more prudent than to ask us to leave. But if they requested our departure, he said that we would comply because we're in Iraq at their invitation. Before and after this exchange, the President defined the danger that we would face if we weren't engaging the enemy in Iraq because they would "follow us home", a refrain repeated many times. I wish someone in the press gathering had asked him the following:
1. What if the democratically elected government, now dominated by Shiites, reflected more the wishes of Iran than Iraq in requesting our departure? Would we still comply? How could we determine the true motivation behind the request? Under what conditions could we possibly ignore an official Iraqi government request that we withdraw? How could we justify our position to stay once asked to leave?
2. If our presence in Iraq is so critical to our safety here, how would we continue to provide the same standards of safety after leaving Iraq?
3. Where exactly would we send the troops upon withdrawal? What would the time line be following the request to leave?
I found the President's position on this subject almost cavalier and unbelievable. Did the press cynically conclude that he was merely paying lip service to the idea of leaving if asked? Why is no one talking about what he said?
Please respond,
Bell County Democrat
Posted by mz
May 29, 2007
Just realized from the coments that the linked article is by Michael Gordon... Michael Gordon is Judith Miller's partner in crime: the neo-con propagandists and serial liars that forever tore the NY Times' reputation to shreds. Joe Klein has no shame, no clue, and 'entirely' no sense of personal responsibility.
Posted by REPORT FROM KAMP KWAZY, DAY 647
May 29, 2007
"This morning we awoke to fresh guava juice and some more unwashed media douche bags for breakfast, so as not to break the chain in our nearly fifteen months of amazing new odors. Hope we don't spook the National Zoo swine again!
After the ceremonial opening burning of the American flag we sang the Iranian national anthem, then took our first group nap of the day.
Following nap time, Cindy Shiite led us and the always sycophant Chavez press in a rousing game of 20 Stalin Era Questions, which nobody won since no one in the crowd could count beyond four.
We resigned ourselves to the sweetest half-hour of Bush bashing so far, theorizing that he's also to blame for AIDS, leprosy, tooth decay, bad cement in The Big Dig, skipping CD's, the Philadelphia Fliers, and extra extra flaming Congresswomen from the earthquake zone. Such a delight!
Before lunch we all watched Michelle Moop's FLESHY 911 for the 187th time, cried a group cry, then took a nap.
Our early afternoon was devoted to ignoring Abbie Hoffman's early suicide when he realized he'd been wrong about almost everything, which of course took it out of us - and so another well deserved if not levitated nap.
Mid-afternoon was a visit to the M Street Backdated Computer Shop & Sandal Repair Center, where we purchased dead tree parts (printer paper) and made some more ugly references to the twice legally elected President before hauling our petrol based machines back to the Dewey Canyon 14 ditch in time for a pre-supper nap.
Dinner was a delicious blend of oats and hay donated by the brother of that guy that almost shot us last year in Crawdad. It was a tad dry, but in sympathy with the very dry elders of France in any January or August, we jammed it down with glee and pretended we were still back home in Sausalito watching Frothline with a wine spritzer and stirrup pants, instead of dealing daily with cockroach poop and Ted Kopple's second bananas.
Early evening was truly a blessing, as someone with actual deodorant drove by about 7. We all inhaled deeply, and laughed the giddy laugh only those with 1 second left on the 15 minutes of fame clock know so well. Then we napped.
Our final session before bed time was another flag burning around the propane lit camp fire, watching our smelly Birkenstocks smoke & stink as we all joined in a rousing chorus of If I Had A Hammer, If I Had A Sickle by Petra, Yawn, and Hairy.
Yes, another complete day at Camp Cwazy, the myopic spirit of the Berrigans and Tom Hayden urging us on to yet another day of ditchness, in our never ending quest to lose another war for the sake of Pell Grants, Medicrank, mayhem, and Social Security.
See you after our night nap!"
Posted by Michael Gardner
May 29, 2007
Sooo... if "the will of the people" no longer exists...DO WE EVEN HAVE A DEMOCRACY ANYMORE???
Posted by Michael Gardner
May 29, 2007
Sooo... if "the will of the people" no longer exists...DO WE EVEN HAVE A DEMOCRACY ANYMORE???
Posted by Franco
May 29, 2007
NYT: "There is one matter on which American military commanders, many Iraqis and some of the Bush administration’s staunchest Congressional critics agree: if the United States withdrew its forces from Baghdad’s streets this fall, the murder and mayhem would increase."
If we withdraw next spring, murder and mayhem will increase.
If we withdraw in 2009, murder and mayhem will increase.
The only difference between these scenarios is that we're losing 50 American lives a month, each and every month we continue playing whack-a-mole and calling it progress. The die is cast. Iraq has no more chance of holding together than Yugoslavia did after Tito died, and for the same reasons.
Posted by Dave Surls
May 30, 2007
"Truly a problem from hell, caused--fecklessly, thoughtlessly, entirely--by George W. Bush. Happy Memorial Day, Mr. President."
No doubt President Bush has done an excellent job in causing a "problem from hell" for an enemy nation (namely Iraq), but this isn't a day when we laud successful war presidents, it's a day when we honor those who have died fighting for our country.
You should be writing about them on Memorial Day.
Pick another day to honor President Bush.