Armey Decoded

Too bad the MSM didn't catch on to the fact that the right-wing is about nothing but word games 20 years ago. Could've saved us a lot of trouble. They're very silly people.

But hey, at least they're civil, right? At least when they're not advocating you kill law enforcement officers or blow up federal buildings or kill reporters.

I hope someone learns their lesson and remembers it before they ask someone like Dick Armey to guest blog here again. He's added NOTHING of value.

Nice job of deconstructing Armey's false innuendos and outright lies. The question is now, when are are you going to start heeding the criticisms from people who keep pointing out your own false statements?

Bravo, Joe.

For those post...Bravo Joe....but don't let it go to your head...

Joe, a few comments about your latest piece in Time which bashes your commentators.

1. If you think that the left-blogosphere is 'intolerant', you should try the right. But I suggest a light lunch.

2. The fact is, you HAVE proven that you can't be trusted to reliably report on what's going on in DC. Your recent "The Surge is working!" column which quoted anonymous sources who merely gave you the Administration's talking points proved it (again). You, like all mainstream journalists are afraid of the right-wingers which eternally accuse you and your publication of being biased towards the left. So you 'balance' right-wing smears and blatant lies with facts in a he-said-she-said, ostensibly objective manner. Frankly, democracy cannot survive in an environment poisoned with lies.

You are basically a collaborator.

Joe, thank you for asking these questions. Hopefully Mr. Armey can use the remainder of the week to answer them with something other than a stump speech.

Holy cow.

Conservative commentators love to get all pugnacious when confronting the straw man liberals that live in their heads (and close cousins of the imaginary, like Ward Churchill).

It's funny to see a very powerful conservative make such weak, fact-free, straw-man-like arguments as to draw out an acerbic reply from a centrist commentator.

Great post, Joe.

Ooops, you did it again.

Joe, the last time you ignorantly spouted off about left wing bloggers, you said they were extremists. At that time, I asked you, four times, to name a SINGLE extremist position taken by the only left wing blogger you ever mention critically, the peerless and insightful economist, Duncan Black. Dr. Black writes as Atrios at Eschaton.

Of course, you failed to mention even ONE extremist position held by Dr. Black.

I'll try again: Can you name a single position held by Atrios that is extremist?

More like this Joe! We like it when you start sounding like one of us leftwing extremists...

Well done, Joe. Don't forget to point out that Armey is being dishonest when he mixes Social Security and Medicare together. It's an old GOP trick.

Social Security's problems are trivial and easily fixed. Medicare's problems are non-trivial and not easily fixed -- and are mostly the result of skyrocketing health care costs, which is not an easily fixed problem for private insurance either.

Dishonest Republican politicians such as Armey like to conflate the problems of Social Security and Medicare as an excuse to "reform" Social Security -- i.e., destroy it, since it is a successful government program that offends their ideological prejudices.

Now that we've learned that in Armey's world, Romney is a socialist, his claim that Clinton is no moderate starts to make more sense.

It's kind of like those people who say the media is liberally biased and then define liberal bias as meaning there is some representation of liberals. (So e.g. Fox is liberally biased since it gives air time to Alan Colmes.)

Zounds! Now THIS is a blog post! I've never seen a finer dismantling of right-wing cant than this, certainly not from a mainstream journalist. Much credit where credit is due, Joe.

What Joe probably knows, but won't tell you, is that in Washington there is a species known as "professional liars." That they exist is no surprise, that Joe Klein legitimizes them by pretending they're here for honest debate is a problem.

Nice rebuttal, Joe.

Isn't it infuriating when some pompous windbag spools off their rote points and refuses to acknowledge when their wrong? Don't you hate it when people are so totally divorced from reality? Don't you wish you could shake them back to awareness?

Yeah. That sure is frustrating.

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/p_lukasiak/2007/jun/07/joe_kleins_big_lie

Bravo.

It's about time that political commentators start clarifying the true ideological foundation of conservatism. Namely, that society or any other collectivity is illegitimate, that the only social organizations that exist are the individual and the family, and that no one owes any responsibility beyond the family (church, et. al. are voluntary). Combined with a rabid nationalism, which ironically requires no collective sacrifice. It's a bleak philosophy of turning inward, and Katrina is the result.

Instead of relying on code words, "ownership," "personal responsibility," sometimes it's necessary to get to philosophical underpinnings of ideas. If Democrats and liberals were better about explaining their underlying philosophy (ie society exists, there is something beyond the individual, and there is a measure of collective responsibility that members of a society share for each other, not boundless responsibility but baseline responsibility) I suspect there would be less "the Democrats have no ideas" cant. This post is a good start.

It pains me to say this, but this is an excellent post, Joe. You cut right to the heart of the matter.

Well done.

Lets get real, the left wing nut jobs have to take extreme postions. It is sort of like making their bones in a gang. You get no real respect unless you are more nuts than the last guy!

Joe, how can you be such a wanker* one day, and then turn around and produce something as good as this?

*yup, you been "Wanker of the Day"ed again...

but since its just a link to another site, I'll save bandwidth and give the direct link... :)

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/p_lukasiak/2007/jun/07/joe_kleins_big_lie

Well done, Joe. Armey's posts have established that he cannot be taken seriously.

Despite Klein's insipid and unfair column about bloggers, he sometimes can analyze arguments nearly as well as his commentators.

Dick Armey sounds as if he's forgotten what it's like to speak to a broad range of informed citizens, instead of to well-screened groups of low-information wingnuts. He's lost the ability to speak using anything but cliches and cant.

I hope no one minds if I write about Joe's column in this thread, becuase I'm afraid it will be buried in the other one.

I wasn't surprised by this column. I thought Joe had some tenable points to make, although I think his views are clouded by a knee-jerk reaction toward any sort of populism. There are some good uses for populism,* especially the real kind, as opposed to the astroturf kind that the right has propagated over the past couple decades.

What got me miffed was Klein's characterizing us as "merely aping" the right. Hasn't he been paying attention? someone wrote in the other thread, "why not talk about *why* lefty bloggers like Atrios or others are so frustrated/angry with the media?" Exactly. This is a false equivalence and Joe should know better. People like David Brock and Al Gore have offered powerful and compelling critiques of the way media has worked in recent history. To say that Al Gore's critique is "merely aping" Bernard Goldberg, or that "The Republican Noise Machine" is "merely aping" "The News Twisters" would be preposterous. And I would add that Gore is indebted to the left blogosphere and David Brock for his critique.

It's also interesting that in one column Joe says the left blogosphere is "merely aping" the right and in a previous one he was calling us "incredibly erudite." I think there's an oversimplification going on that seems to change from column to column. Jon Chait also oversimplified in his TNR column, and I thought Garance Franke-Ruta, senior editor at The American Prospect magazine had a good response to chait:

http://thegarance.com/archives/347

*See, for instance, Josh Marshall on the B*tch Slap Theory of Electoral Politics:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/003295.php

Joe,
Kudos! clap, clap, clap

Now, I just hafta tell you that I am in the mood today to tell ya to HIT HIM AGAIN!

And here's something else. Michael Kinsley recently wrote:

***The big strategic challenge for a career like this is to remain interesting, and the easiest tactic for doing that is surprise. If they expect you to say X, you say minus X.

Consistency is foolish, as the man said. (Didn’t he?) Under the unwritten and somewhat eccentric rules of American public discourse, a statement that contradicts everything you have ever said before is considered for that reason to be especially sincere, courageous and dependable. At The New Republic in the 1980s, when I was the editor, we used to joke about changing our name to “Even the Liberal New Republic,” because that was how we were referred to whenever we took a conservative position on something, which was often. Then came the day when we took a liberal position on something and we were referred to as “Even the Conservative New Republic.”

As this example illustrates, among writers about politics, the surprise technique usually means starting left and turning right. Trouble is, you do this once and what’s your next party trick?***

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/13/books/review/Kinsley-t.html?ex=1181361600&en=39027bb2847c5925&ei=5070

I think some of us have been sick of the "party tricks", in which heterodox opinions are rewarded by a media that cares about sensationalism more than integrity. I think we have been saying "enough of the party tricks. Obviously, there are some real things at stake here--real people and lives on the line."

"True freedom can only exist within the context of a working society; without it, we have a state of nature"

Great insight. I always wonder why, if the Armey types really believe what they say, they choose to live in areas where regulation has made for a very secure, if controlled, reality-- gated communities where even the color of your mailbox is regulated-- or send their kids to schools where they're required to wear uniforms, or try to regulate who other people can sleep with or marry. It's one of the weird modern conservative conundrums where theoretical libertarianism meets authoritarianism-- "Freedom" is all, except let's make sure the rabble is kept at bay, even the rabble within each of us.

The idea there might be a golden medium between those two extremes is probably seen as "surrender" by Armey. But then, I don't get any sense he believes what he says applies to HIM. He's been fine taking a government paycheck all these years, and I bet he drives on roads paid for with taxes, and if he's going to refuse his Social Security check, I'd love to hear it.

It reminds me of Dan Burton, the congressman who was all against "government intervention" and help for the disabled, except of course help for autism... because there was autism in his family. If it affected him, his principles didn't apply.

Hypocrisy is common among right-wingers, but it has to be, because there is literally no way to live in the world they say they want.

Klein takes the time to debate -- firmly, clearly, but politely -- against the insane rightwing talking points of Congressman Armey. He calls a smear a smear, but doesn't personally insult Armey himself. Righteous, but respectful.

Yet at the same time, this is what Klein calls the people who merely pointed out his well-documented sloppy work regarding Jane Harman:

free-range lunacy
odious
disdainful
witless
intolerant
simplistic
extreme
Extremist
merely aping Rush Limbaugh

A reasonable reader wouldn't need to ask why the left-wing bloggers attacking you, Joe. You've made it more than self-evident.

Joe:

Here's a good-will suggestion: how about either collating or having a staffer collate some of the arguments from the comment section, and posting it on the main page? It seems pretty clear that Armey is not reading those discussions, and some of the better posts highlight even more of the problems with his arguments than you or Jay have been able to address.

It would be interesting to see if he did have any response, and it would be a good way to further draw in your audience.

"Because, in a democracy, we have this weird concept: the consent of the governed. "

No Joe, we have a concept called liberty. Forcing individuals to accept government control over their health care is not democracy or "consent". Unless you are using the Fidel Castro definition of democracy I suppose.

I quoted above "The big strategic challenge for a career like this is to remain interesting..." He's talking about Christopher Hitchens, but I think the point still holds that the media unduly rewards heterodox opinions, for some reason especially coming from the left.

But at a certain point, we don't need tricky heterodoxes, we need dedicated, clear eyed views. This was lacking in the lead up to the war. There comes a time when you have to follow what John Quiggin at Crooked Timber calls "the basic dictum of party politics"--“We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.”

http://crookedtimber.org/2007/05/06/the-two-party-system/

Now can this be taken too far? Sure. But there are a lot of things at stake right now, and it's understandable that people don't want triangulation. They want clear, serious advocacy for what have been underserved truths.

By the way, even one of Armey's economic saints Friedrich Hayek thought a government managed universal health care system was fine (don't have the quote offhand, but he did think that).

Just what we needed...a battle of wits between two unarmed opponents.

Socialism = something conservatives don't like.

Real world definitions are besides the point. But thanks for trying to inject some reality. Don't look for Armey to deal with it head on.

Damn good job, Joe. You smacked him down but good. More like this, please…

Good piece Joe.

Tel me again what the value is in having Dick Armey post here? Could the next guest blogger be intelligent and responsive? Please?

Hey Joe! This was pretty good, but why did you go screaming at Jacob Weisberg, in your usual unhinged extreme style, because he published something about how you were lying about being the author of Primary Colors?? Do you have any explanation at all for that kind of behavior?? What would your Mother think?? And what exactly did you mean with that crack about "dinner invitations"?? Do you commonly stalk and scream at anyone with which you disagree??

It's good to hear that, despite the increased casualties and the permanent extinguishment of precious human lives, the "surge is working." After all, we've "got to take Saddam out!"

See Joe, you're much better when you're arguing against right-wing standpoints than left-wing. :) It's much easier to attack them of course, since their arguments have shifted so right that it's tough to even make strawmen that would sound as radical, but still. Good job.

Thank you, Joe.

Mr. Armey is just an RNC ad. Time should be getting money for putting him in print.

Well done, Joe. This is the enemy, not Atrios and Kos (and us).

Congratulations on the Drudge link!

Would anyone in their right mind design a system like the current social security system if they were to design a new system from scratch? There are so many options availabe that weren't even around in the 30's when the current system was developed. Why not let anyone over 45 continue in the present system, unless they want to opt out and join a new system. Have a national 401-K and limit the investment choices, like the best plans do, and give everyone a choice as to which system they want to join. Eventually everyone would be in the new system and would control their own retirement funds instead of the politicians spending it and using various sleight-of-hand methods of confiscating it.

Ummm, the current SS system is actually pretty good at giving people a guaranteed benefit base from which they can live off in retirement. They can then supplement that with their own investments. But the point is that investments such as 401-Ks can go south through no fault of the investor, while SS is guaranteed income. Unless, of course, we let the politicans take it away. Also, Bob, "limiting invesment choices" in the biggest investment pool in the country would be a bigger interference with the economy than the current SS system is.

Also, congrats to Joe Klein, on a terrific piece which has the added virtue of being true. People have been so afraid to speak even the most basic liberal common sense that you can get a long way just by applying common sense to Repub rhetoric.

Now apply the same hard thinking to our mess in Iraq...why are we there again?

bob - That's because social security ISN'T A PENSION FUND. It's a guaranteed benefit that you receive no matter how badly the market performs, even if you have some personal crisis and need to dip into your retirement savings to scrape by. Taking a guaranteed benefit and turning it into a stock market crapshoot defeats the entire purpose of social security, which was to clean up the mess created by a libertarian economy which destroyed an entire generation's retirement savings in the Great Depression, and prevent this situation from ever happening again.

There is, of course, nothing stopping you from having your own 401K on top of social security.

Thanks for stopping by.

Joe, as someone who's criticized you before, I want to praise you for the job you've done on Armey. It's hard to believe this man holds an advanced degree in Economics and is unaware of just how stupid and glib his arguments are.

ajl,

you don't have to invest in the stock market, although over time it would be much better, but just have a simple savings account paying a reasonable interest rate, would be better than the current system, and each person would have control over their own money. Also, there would be something to pass on to heirs, which under the current system there is only a $250 death benefit, which wouldn't even begin to pay for burial expenses.

"I hope someone learns their lesson and remembers it before they ask someone like Dick Armey to guest blog here again. He's added NOTHING of value."

Frank, they got exactly what they wanted w/ Armey...more page hits, more revenue, they don't care what you think. The lesson they learned is that hiring Armey was the best thing they could have done...look at how many comments he generates, those are page hits/views Frank, they get money for that. They hold you in contempt, you are a nutso liberal...and you keep them profitable by coming here.

Joke, here's something from Andrew Sullivan's site re your hissy fit:

"I would hazard to say that that’s because the blogosphere has grown sick of the tone of arrogant, condescending, tone-deafness of the inside-the-beltway pundit class, and would appreciate a little more respect, and a little less dismissive presentation of “talk to the hand,” thank you very much. Six years of bended-knee coverage tends to generate a little fierceness, don’t you think? Especially when, even after all that time, you *still* get things like that gag-inducing mutual stroke session between Tony Snow, Richard Wolffe, et. al. And Klein wonders why the blogosphere is inflamed!"

I have to admit Joke, despite my my self imposed deadline of Friday, seeing how much we've gotten under your skin has me re-thinking my position. Maybe we can drive you to retirement.

This post WAS good Joke, a nice take-down of the typical right-wing chicanery, but getting 9 out of 10 things wrong still makes you a Joke. If Americans want to be informed, they'd better stop reading crap like Time or anything from the MSM really. Some better reading material:

www.rawstory.com
www.economist.com
www.talkingpointsmemo.com
www.juancole.com
http://www.guardian.co.uk/
http://noquarter.typepad.com/

Thats all we have left...blogs and the foreign press.

An example of 'fierce, bullying, often witless tone of intolerance' that Joke wrote about?:

'That night I was at a table with Jacob Weisberg, the political scribbler for New York magazine. We were gossiping about fellow journalists, when Klein passed by. He spotted Weisberg and came to a stop. That week New York had published a piece about how a literary expert had used a computer program to pinpoint tell-tale similarities between Klein's bylined writings and "Primary Colors." Weisberg had written a sidebar noting that there were other reasons to suspect Klein. The author of the book, Weisberg reported, was knowledgeable about New York politics, a onetime Clintonphile who now felt betrayed, and a man obsessed about the subject of race. All these attributes fit Klein.

Klein was enraged. He launched into a blistering attack on Weisberg. Why hadn't New York -- where Klein once had been the political columnist -- called him, he yelled, for a comment? (A comment which, obviously, would have been a lie.) "Thanks, thanks, a lot, Jacob," he said with bitter sarcasm. "That was real nice." Klein's face was red. His eyes steely. He wouldn't let Weisberg talk. "And that bit about being obsessed about race -- I really liked that. Do you think being concerned about an important national issue is the same as being obsessed?" How could the magazine do this to him, he demanded to know, playing the wrongly accused to perfection.

Increasingly wound up, he charged Weisberg with possessing no class and making improper use of off-the-record information. Getting meaner, Klein said Weisberg was gaining a reputation in journalistic circles as an unlikeable fellow not worthy of a dinner-party invitation. (I know of no evidence of this and find Weisberg entirely likable.) When Weisberg tried to squeeze in a word, Klein shot him the look of daggers and hissed: "You don't understand. This is the very last time you and I will ever speak. The last time." '

Wow. Joke, tell us, did you use Stella Adler's techniques to get yourself to place in your own mind where you actually DIDN'T write Primary Colors, in order to work up this kind of a rage?
Did you somehow absorb Robert DeNiro's mojo, cuz this was about the same time he started to really, really suck.

Someone wrote earlier that Dick Armey added nothing to Swampland. I disagree. He threw a number of dishonest conservative softballs over the plate and gave Joe here the opportunity to take a swing at them.

Well done.

(After reading his inane posts here, does anyone but me wonder if Dick Armey is capable of being embarassed?)

Good job Joe.

But it appears that even you are being ignored by Dick Armey.

I would take issue with your written column but others have already lashed into you for it. Suffice it to say, you and I have a very different interpretation of events.

You were mislead by a source and published your comment before you they informed you of the change. Fine. But what bothers us a great deal is that changing the tense of verbs in quotes is 'common usage for politicians who know their words will appear after a vote takes place.' I don't know if you've noticed this yet but the blogs are full of people with a thirst for precision. We time-stamp our comments; we hyperlink our sources; etc.

The bottom line is that you posted something that wasn't true and easily debunked. You made no comment about it for a long time (in internet time) and took a few pies to the face for it. When the truth came out there were many who accepted the situation for what it was and there were some who had already found your credibility to be irretrievable. But all of us want to see a few common journalistic practices tightened up a bit.

Hayek's *Road to Serfdom*:

****There is no reason why in a society which has reached the general level of wealth which ours has attained the first kind of security should not be guaranteed to all without endangering general freedom…there can be no doubt that some minimum of food, shelter, and clothing, sufficient to preserve health and the capacity to work, can be assured to everybody…Nor is there any reason why the state should not assist the individuals in providing for those common hazards of life against which, because of their uncertainty, few individuals can make adequate provision. Where, as in the case of sickness and accident, neither the desire to avoid such calamities nor the efforts to overcome their consequences are as a rule weakened by the provision of the assistance – where, in short, we deal with genuinely insurable risks – the case for the state’s helping to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance is very strong….To the same category belongs also the increase of security through the state’s rendering assistance to the victims of such “acts of God” as earthquakes and floods. Whenever communal action can mitigate disasters against which the individual can neither attempt to guard himself or make provision for the consequences, such communal action should undoubtedly be taken****

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/10/tim_duy_in_defe.html

To all those out there that believe that a national health care for all would mean that the government will be making your healthcare decisions ... well guess what ... the insurance companies do that now. They tell you what doctors and hospitals they cover and you have to pick one those. You have a choice but it is their choice.

To all those who think that medicare is terrible. How would you like to be paying for your elderly parents healthcare out of your own pocket? Medicare is a very good deal for the amount of money taken out of your paycheck to pay for your parents and grandparents healthcare. Could it be improved? Of course. Personally, I would not care if they increased my payroll taxes 5 or 10 bucks for medicare.

Dick Armey and his ilk can blast away all they want but the fact of the matter is that a majority of Americans are fed up with the current healthcare system in this country. Armey has no idea what it is like to not have it, he has no worries.

And as for all those young people who do not want to be 'forced' into carrying health insurance because they don't want to pay for it. Who is going pay your medical bill when you get into an car accident or motorcycle accident? We all end up paying for it. The hidden tax that the republicans never mention.

Thank you Joe Klein, for calling a spade a spade.

To all those out there that believe that a national health care for all would mean that the government will be making your healthcare decisions ... well guess what ... the insurance companies do that now. They tell you what doctors and hospitals they cover and you have to pick one those. You have a choice but it is their choice.

To all those who think that medicare is terrible. How would you like to be paying for your elderly parents healthcare out of your own pocket? Medicare is a very good deal for the amount of money taken out of your paycheck to pay for your parents and grandparents healthcare. Could it be improved? Of course. Personally, I would not care if they increased my payroll taxes 5 or 10 bucks for medicare.

Dick Armey and his ilk can blast away all they want but the fact of the matter is that a majority of Americans are fed up with the current healthcare system in this country. Armey has no idea what it is like to not have it, he has no worries.

And as for all those young people who do not want to be 'forced' into carrying health insurance because they don't want to pay for it. Who is going pay your medical bill when you get into an car accident or motorcycle accident? We all end up paying for it. The hidden tax that the republicans never mention.

Thank you Joe Klein, for calling a spade a spade.

To all those out there that believe that a national health care for all would mean that the government will be making your healthcare decisions ... well guess what ... the insurance companies do that now. They tell you what doctors and hospitals they cover and you have to pick one those. You have a choice but it is their choice.

To all those who think that medicare is terrible. How would you like to be paying for your elderly parents healthcare out of your own pocket? Medicare is a very good deal for the amount of money taken out of your paycheck to pay for your parents and grandparents healthcare. Could it be improved? Of course. Personally, I would not care if they increased my payroll taxes 5 or 10 bucks for medicare.

Dick Armey and his ilk can blast away all they want but the fact of the matter is that a majority of Americans are fed up with the current healthcare system in this country. Armey has no idea what it is like to not have it, he has no worries.

And as for all those young people who do not want to be 'forced' into carrying health insurance because they don't want to pay for it. Who is going pay your medical bill when you get into an car accident or motorcycle accident? We all end up paying for it. The hidden tax that the republicans never mention.

Thank you Joe Klein, for calling a spade a spade.

After six plus years of an administration that has no use for government, we shall see in November '08 which Party the people prefer to run things post-Decider. Something tells me that a healthy majority of us desire good government that works for all of it's citizens. That, of course, relegates today's version of the Republican Party to the dunghill of history.
Good riddance.

Joke...I'm thinking of ordering pizza in the next half hour. Can you tell me which pizza establishments are safe? I don't want to have my home attacked by hordes of terrorists. I mean, we all know the devestation those 6 pizza delivery guys could have done to Ft. Dix, just imagine what they could do to my humble abode. I don't have tanks or anything. Should I go w/a mom and pop establishment? Or is the entirety of the pizza deliveryperson community suspect?

Is this the same Joe Klein attacking bloggers in Time calling what they say "bile"?
Surely it can not be since you were exposed in Newsbusters in your attacks on Dick Armey's first blog were based on false information.

Mr. Klein, you like all liberals are amusing in the Pot Klein calling the Blogger Black when you practice the same incessant, underhanded, dirty tricks you condemn bloggers who challenge you doing the same thing.
INFECTED WITH POLITICAL BLATHER, gee Mr. Klein and Time that would not be hate speech would it in saying Mr. Armey's thoughts are some sort of disease to be remedied now would it? Calling Conservatism a disease sounds allot like a German fellow in 1939 saying the same thing about a group of people he branded with diatribe too.

Mr. Klein, you and all your Dan Rather types lit this monster on the left of Moveon and Capitol Hill Blue of the Clinton doctrine of lie, deny and vilify, but then you would know this as you were the lying author who denied he wrote a book about his buddy Bill Clinton.
You are the problem Mr. Klein in creating this inferno which you fueled to take advantage of sick minds like Cindy Sheehan instead of advocating her receiving counseling.
Your silence is as great a crime against humane treatment of others as your too oft attack dog diatribes.

Physician heal thyself. Klein heal thy blogger and perhaps the malevolent mob here and elsewhere who applaud your attacks will learn to be more tolerant and not internet despots.

Joe: "Surely it can not be since you were exposed in Newsbusters in your attacks on Dick Armey's first blog were based on false information."

See, Joe, this is how bad it could be. You have a rocky relationship with commenters here, but your recent column is going to draw in all sorts of wingnuts to pick on the "liberal extremists".

You thought you saw bile? Ad hominem? Incoherence? Wait til the freepers arrive in force.

Man, the ONLY good thing about having Armey here is hearing actually decent posts with SENSe coming from Joe Klein.

This isn't hard as Armey is spewing utter nonsense and talking point go fish cards.

Still, I applaud you, Joe, for standing up to him and for actually calling him out on not answering you.

Government health care, hahahahahahahahaha, please spare me I do not have health insurance because I do not want it. If the government tries to force me to have health insurance then they may as well lock me up. Anyways, governmental health insurance is a terrible idea and is simple to explain why, if the complex mind of the let me be your GOD liberals would just be able to unwind and relax and sit back and enjoy themselves. HERE IS WHY, MANNNNN!

For example look at government run schools. All the teachers make sad living wages,lots of them are in it just for the benefits and they can seem to care less if the student learns. OK, Now, there are teachers who bend over backwards to teach these kids but the hard working teachers usually waste their talent in inner-city schools where the parents usually don't care and their children are usually messed up due to prenatal drug use.

So would you like to go to a doctor who depends on a congressional committee to determine his wage? Would you? Now, I wouldn't trust my life in the hand of a congress member who can't even decide if war is good or bad under the circumstances, and if we should enforce immigration law or if we should just appeal to criminals. But hey thats me, maybe I am the idiot in the round room looking for a corner. But from looking at the government work I believe one would rather die then suffer the hope that congress will pay a doctor enough money to for him/her (politically correct for you complex minds) to do a good job. Then if the Doctor screws up who do you sue? The government. GOOD LUCK. Frankly I would just stick to over the counter and stay clean and be safe. But thinking before you act, usually slips past the complex being.

Sorry if you feel insulted you can relay your comments and concerns to:
Forgotcommonsense@whocares.net

From John:

"But thinking
before you act,
usually
slips past the complex being."

Poetry. I love it.

Give us choice with Social Security. The system was in the RED from it's inception. Ida May Fuller was the first social security recipient. She paid in a total of $24.75, retired in 1939, lived to be 100 years old in 1975, and in the process collected $22,888.92 in benefits. It's laughable. That's really all you need to know about a "good" system that the people like. Taxing people more to get out of this mess isn't the answer anymore. We should realistically change the age when benefits begin as it's lunacy (considering life expectancy)to keep the same age as when the program started. It's also time to go the route that Chile has taken with utilizing the private sector.

Commenting on your Time articale"

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1630004,00.html

"They are also justifiably furious at a Bush White House that has specialized in big lies and smear tactics."

"And that is precisely the danger here. Fury begets fury. Poison from the right-wing talk shows seeped into the Republican Party's bloodstream and sent that party off the deep end. Limbaugh's show—where Dick Cheney frequently expatiates—"

Now, now Joe. Pretty strong words. What lies, and what smear tactics, and what poison? You sound as loony as the blogs you were writing about. I do not know why the blogs you write about are mad at you with the venom you just exported. You fit right in.

"The people really like it, and have for 70 years now."

Joe, if you ever got out of DC, out of the below the waist cleavage of the politicians, you would know that is nothing but a bald faced lie. We contribute because we must. Give me the money, let me invest it myself and I'll be a lot better off and so will the country. You and yours just can't do without our money. Do us all a favor and get out of our pockets.

Of course what should I expect from someone that can't even UNDERSTAND conservatives?

::enthusiastic applause::

Joe, I've jumped on your case where it's seemed appropriate. But this is damned good. Very well said.

I think someone should call the authorities. I'm picturing Joe tied up in a corner while a genuine progressive is at his computer tearing Dick a new one.

Wow. More like this, please.

Posted by arch stanton
June 7, 2007
Joke...I'm thinking of ordering pizza in the next half hour. Can you tell me which pizza establishments are safe? I don't want to have my home attacked by hordes of terrorists. I mean, we all know the devestation those 6 pizza delivery guys could have done to Ft. Dix, just imagine what they could do to my humble abode. I don't have tanks or anything. Should I go w/a mom and pop establishment? Or is the entirety of the pizza deliveryperson community suspect?
*******
arch, was the name of the pizza establishment that "terrist" worked for maybe Domino's? If I recall correctly, the owner of Domino's is a GOPer wingnut of the first order. Wouldn't that be poetic justice if a GOPer wingnut was employing/harboring "terrists"?

John
June 7, 2007
Joe: "Surely it can not be since you were exposed in Newsbusters in your attacks on Dick Armey's first blog were based on false information."

See, Joe, this is how bad it could be. You have a rocky relationship with commenters here, but your recent column is going to draw in all sorts of wingnuts to pick on the "liberal extremists".

You thought you saw bile? Ad hominem? Incoherence? Wait til the freepers arrive in force.
***********
John, I couldn't agree with your more. Since Armey's arrival, Swampland has been infested with Freeper wingers. Some are more civilized than QH has been, but the majority are as odious or more so than our pet troll, QH.

When Swampland's High Sheriffs brought in the dead and rotting carcass of Mr. Armey, the fetid aroma was irresistable to the cockroaches and other vermin.

Once Armey has departed, we'll have to order a tanktruck of DDT and/or Clorox to fumigate and to clean up the place.

I agree with the premise that all "code words" have to be defined. We all hate "corporate welfare" don't we? We all are in favor of "ownership" of your possessions, don't we?
We're all against "high taxes", unless of course they will no apply to us. The "rich" are those who make more money than we do, live in better houses and have throw money away on toys we would like to have.
I realize that we will never be able to get everyone to speek the same language, but it would help if we tried have some sort of understnading. May be this would help us not see so many "demons" out to "lie, cheat, and steal" from the "good guys"; US.

Dear Joe,
I've criticized you in the past, in fact I'd written off Swampland altogether and only wandered back over here because of Bob Somerby's defense of you yesterday. I'm glad I did. Your response to Mr. Armey, which could really be the response to all the right wing sloganeers of the past 30 years, was very good. Nice work!

Does this mean Dick Armey is extreme? (I know the right-wing blogosphere is nonexistent to Joe Klein, but I didn't know whether that amusing diatribe still counted or not.)

RL: Conservatives are easy to understand; it's just unpleasant.

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
John Galbraith (1908 - )

Separately, Mr. Klein still fails to understand that if he had posted:

"The quote was accurate, but my reporting on Rep. Harman's vote was lazy; I should have verified it before posting on it, out of general journalistic principle."

...he'd currently be receiving plaudits for honesty and adherence to fact. Mr. Klein, it's not the error, it's the arrogant mendacity which is the problem.

Also, re: your description of Atrios, my mother always taught me that when I was referring to people I didn't like, I should be careful to describe them in the most respectful possible terms. How were you raised?

Finally, link to the original posts, dammit, rather than require your readership to bounce to the main blog and search the archives. Anything else is intellectually dishonest. Again.

Joe! Good show, man. Brad DeLong says you ate your Wheaties that morning. It makes up for lots of the stuff that those mean leftie bloggers are always ragging on you about. But remember, they had had a point sometimes. Belive me, the right wing is far worse. Do you read what the Freepers say, the Little Green Footballs, Ann Coulter?

The subject of a very wonderful and distinct
I thank you for continuing excellence
Thank you
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yazılı chat,
canlı chat,
camera chat
TIRTIKLA
TIRTIKLA Sitemap
Kameralı chat
Sesli Sohbet
SesliSohbet
SpeakyChat Odaları
Sesli Chat panelleri
kameralı sohbet
kameralı chat
Sesli Sohbet
Sesli Sohbet
Sesli Sohbet
Sesli Sohbet
Sesli Sohbet
Sesli Chat
Sesli Chat
Sesli Chat
Sesli Chat
Sesli Chat
Sesli sohbet Siteleri

The subject of a very wonderful and distinct
I thank you for continuing excellence
Thank you

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شباب ليبيا

ريال مدريد
ميلان
يوفنتوس
الجزيرة الرياضية
فالنسيا
مانشستر يونايتد
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theme
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infiniti
سيارة انفنتى
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