Go Ahead And Shoot At Me

Welcome to Swampland you ignorant hillbilly.

just don't do what dick armey did .....Please !

"those Democratic bloggers, who have appointed themselves as intellectually superior and believe the only way to win an argument is to shot the loudest with personal attacks"

Some quotes by Joe Klein to get you up to speed --

Eric Alterman: "futile and pathetic", narcissistic, lazy, peripheral, inaccurate, foolish, silly...
Reason: "has been on my case"

Duncan Black: "illiberal leftist", Extremist (demoted to: "extremely smug")
Reason: Atrios has been mostly correct over the last few years (and called Joe Klein a wanker)

Noam Chomsky: "America Hater"
Reason: No explanation whatsoever

John Edwards: "Edwards' line of work: ambulance-chaser"
"skeevy ambulance chasers (probably) contributing to his campaign"
Reason: Edwards is a Democrat with money

Al Gore: "a smug, stubborn, and aloof human being", "harsh and stupid", "Gore's populism reeked of resentment and neurosis", "looked like a madman"
Reason: (ad hominem)

John Kerry: effete, awkward, aristocratic, Frenchy jerk
Reason: false claim that Kerry focus-grouped his Abu Ghraib response (a claim which Klein used to plug his book)

Paul Krugman: "fool", "ill-informed dilettante"
Reason: Krugman said that those who argue for an failed escalation in the Iraq war are either cynical or delusional

Media Matters: "thought police"
Reason: Media Matters highlighted Klein's use of a Republican cliché

Michael Moore: "a disgrace"
Reason: Took 9/11 victims to get free healthcare in Cuba

Markos Moulitsas: "dangerous extremist" "Robespierre"
Reason: Kos believes in the efficacy of democratic primary elections

Al Sharpton: "a race-hustling phony" "a dangerous buffoon"
Reason: Sharpton asks too many questions, leads "phony protests"

Joe Klein on Democrats in general:

"a party with absolutely no redeeming social value"

"They seem as confused as Democrats normally do"

"make fools of themselves even when they speak the truth"

"the perpetually benighted Donkey party"

"It's a really boring and flat party."

"the Democratic Party has had a love affair with eggheads, and sad to say, high IQ is not a leading indicator of success in the presidency."

"unable to creatively engage or oppose President Bush—or even to start an interesting fight among themselves"

Joe Klein on about everybody on "The Left":

"the take-no-prisoners left"

"illiberal leftists and reactionary progressives"

"rooting for an American failure"

"assume every U.S. military action abroad is criminal"

"a need, born of intellectual myopia and insecurity, to burn heretics"

"The default position of leftists like, say, Michael Moore and many writers at The Nation, is that America is essentially a malignant, imperialistic force in the world and the use of American military power is almost always wrong."

"I hold you all in contempt and heartily agree with Joe Klein's supercilious disdain for the people who read and comment on this blog.

Now let's have a civilized conversation, you ignorant, witless, intolerant, pseudo-intellectual elitists."

Yeah, great way to open up a dialogue.

Mudcat, heal thyself.

"Unless fourth estate integrity has been compromised.."

You do know who Joe Klein is, right?

Welcome. I'd like to hear your views, but I think you're going to have to name some of these "Democratic bloggers" or people are going to wonder if such people exist.

The War on Straw(tm) commences. I guess Mr. Klein realized that he was being outflanked and went for some reinforcements.

One hopes that Mr. Saunders will not be as temporally challenged as Mr. Klein.

Cranky

I knew I was expecting too much when I hoped TIME could bring in someone as far to the left as Dick Armey is to the right.

Mudcat, please don't add to the chorus of anti-bloggers calling left-wing bloggers "incivil." I guess we're supposed to roll over as usual when Ann Coulter says we should kill people or Lee Rodgers (of KSFO) suggests electrocuting people ... or when Ann calls your candidate a derogatory name for a homosexual.

I'll be civil when the time calls for being civil. Until then, I'm fighting fire with fire (rhetorically speaking), and I won't apologize for it.

(Welcome to Swampland, btw.)

*sigh*

Look, here is how it works. Don't be an idiot and we won't call you an idiot.

But do not come here and vent your frustration at the mythic 'Northeastern Liberal' when the commentors are from all over the nation. You're huntin deer and shootin quail.

So let's get to talking about how the GOP has screwed up our country and leave the Dem-bashing to Jay Carney.

Mr. Saunders,

Thank you for bringing the left's incivility to light (and another thanks goes to Mr. Klein). As a moderate Republican, I've posted civil messages about news topics at hand, only to be insulted in pretty much every vile way possible by the radical left wingers who plague this site. There used to be a time when civil political discussion was the rule, not the exception, and it's sad to see it go out the window thanks to extremists from both parties. I'd have to say that while the right used to be the more significant offender in this regard, the communist left has easily taken the cake in terms of the sheer hatred and amount of insults cast out at everyone, not just Republicans. When Tony Snow's cancer returned, "liberal" "tolerant" bloggers on other sites, and perhaps this one, rejoiced and made statements desiring his death. I don't know about you, but I don't wish death on anyone.

As far as intellectual arrogance is concerned, you're absolutely correct. The left wing bloggers try to behave as if they have an education, then when I can counter all of their talking points and go that extra step ahead, they resort to insults, invective, villification, pillory, etc. Then, of course, when I point this out to them, they "yell" even louder, and eventually disappear (sometimes).

The South distrusts the democratic party because of these jokers, as do midwesterners. As a midwesterner, I can tell you that the bulk of us will do anything to keep a liberal democrat out of office. Even some true democrats, like my mother, don't trust candidates like Hillary, and will either vote for an independent candidate, or not vote at all.

I'd vote for a reasonable democrat, but regrettably the frontrunners are anything but.

"I woke up this morning and was going to start my stint as a guest correspondent by trying to kick up a dialogue on how my people in rural America are getting screwed into the stone ages. "

This was a conversation I was looking forward to, but after reading and re-reading this unbelievably hostile (and laughably hypocritical) borderline hysterical opening screed, I really don't know if I'm interested in anything this man has to say.

Are rural Americans up in arms that multi-millionaire perjuror I. Scooter Libby went to jail? this is just the most bizarre, self-contradictary piece of writing I have read in a long time.

That was a parody upstairs, right?

Or did Time really bring in another cluless nit pretending to be a liberal?

Nah, couldn't be that.

Gotta go now -- tickets to La Boheme at the Metropolitan Opera.

Who is Mudcat and why should we care?

Yes, here I am an elitist Iowegian.

There is an aspect of blogs with comment sections that works very much like how an American imagines the conversation at a British pub; someone states an opinion and the rest of the company comments on it. In that atmosphere, you're liable to have personal attacks as well as thoughtful analysis. It's just the nature of public discussion; this ain't a Harvard symposium! Joe Klein has a reputation, for good or ill, and some people feel it more appropriate to attack the man rather than his individual statements.

"At the same time, those Democratic bloggers, who have appointed themselves as intellectually superior and believe the only way to win an argument is to shot the loudest with personal attacks, you can go to Hell."

Which Democratic bloggers would those be, exactly? Kos? Atrios? Greenwald?

It's not a good start to your tenure here to immediately set up a strawblogger (who doesn't really exist) and bash your audience. Better give some examples.

Who is Mudcat and why should we care?

Wow, what a transparent, pathetic attempt to get some "hits."

Is this the best you can do?

Pass.

"I have bitched and moaned for years about the lack of tolerance in the elitist wing of the Democratic Party, or what I refer to as the "Metropolitan Opera Wing". These are the people who talk of tolerance but the only true tolerance they ever exhibit is for their own pseudo-intellectual arrogance."

Way to buy into the right-wing spin on the left wing of the Party, you useless, lying tool.

Semi-shorter Mudcat:

"We can’t bust heads like we used to, but we have our ways. One trick is to tell 'em stories that don’t go anywhere -- like the time I caught the ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so, I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt, which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. 'Give me five bees for a quarter,' you’d say. Now where were we? Oh yeah -- the important thing was that I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones..."

Incidentally, is it possible to be a "civil" "firebrand?"

I'm just a simple caveman. I don't understand your "fire" and your "wheel." But I do know this -- Joe Klein is deserving of your respect and admiration. I'm just a caveman, so I don't have the power of your "written words." But those of you who do should use that power to give Joe Klein thanks. Thanks for being a civil, unbiased bastion of Truth. Even a caveman can see that.

You're asking the Time clowns for blogging advice!?

Well, there's your problem...

"When Tony Snow's cancer returned, "liberal" "tolerant" bloggers on other sites, and perhaps this one, rejoiced and made statements desiring his death"

Name one. Just one. And provide a link.

Really I think Mr. Klein's post on Irving Libby says it all: Mr. Klein is a Washington DC insider. Irving Libby is a Washington DC insider. Libby is "one of us"; he works the DC circuit; his children play with our children and/or our friends' children. Libby is a "good man". Too bad about that little misunderstanding with the CIA agent and the burning of Brewster-Jennings, but these things happen. He shouldn't be punished for breaking the law. Really he shouldn't even have been charged; charging people with crimes is for non-insiders. Bad partisan hippie bloggers.

I guess I just have a hard time seeing how Mr. Klein's attitude, and yours, matches up to our beliefs and needs out here in the middle-Midwest. We aren't DC insiders here; we do get charged with crimes (including obstruction of justice); and when juries of our peers vote to convict us we go to prison. Of course, we try to avoid committing crimes in the first place - maybe Irving Libby and Mr. Klein should have thought of that?

Cranky

Stengel: *snaps his fingers*

"I've got it! Let's bring in someone from 'the Left' to criticize Lefty bloggers! We'll 'Joe Leiberman' them! Someone has to stop these dirty hippy commenters! Why, just last week, Mr. Klein fainted dead away, clutching his pearls, when some serf called him an '@sshat'."

Hey, mudcat, how about not ignoring all of the meat of everyones arguments, and instead concentrating on the 3% name calling that exists in that thread?

Honest to god, it's like dealing with children.

Shorter Mudcat: GO TO HELL YOU ELITIST UNCIVIL BASTARDS

Shorter Mudcat:

"Metropolitan Opera Wing" Democrats are losing the rural vote because they are being too hard on Joe Klein for carrying water for rural hero, Scooter Libby.

"I am certain I will get personally attacked for this next statement, but in all honesty, I don't care what the "Metropolitan Wing" of my party thinks. I don't like them. "

Jesus Freaking Christ on a Pogo Stick!

the good news is we won't have to put up with official GOP talking points this week.

the bad news is that we're going to have to put up with the unofficial David Duke wing of the GOP talking points this week...

Here's a clue. Although practically none of us has ever attended the Metropolitan Opera, my guess is that most of us are precisely the kind of people that you despise.

And, you are precisely the kind of person most of us despise.

So do us a favor. Explain to whatever moron thought it would be a good idea to have you guest-blog this week that it ISN'T a good idea --- that you have nothing to contribute here, and we have nothing to say to you that can be honestly expressed in a civil manner.

And then go back to waving your confederate flag, and pretending that Black Americans shouldn't be deeply and personally offended, and that Democrats of all colors should just pretend that you don't represent white racist america.

"Posted by AlessandroMagno
June 11, 2007"

Did you have your pinky sticking out when you wrote that?

Please. I didn't see a single sensible left wing blogger celebrating Tony Snow's illness (not saying there aren't idiots out there, but you cannot generalize), although I've seen plenty of right wingers who whooped it up when Sen. Tim Johnson had a brain hemorrhage or, worse, when Steve Gilliard died. (Let me know if you want links. I'll get 'em for ya.)

People in glass blogs shouldn't throw stones.

Karl Rove must be paying MudCat really well.

Oh, and AlessandroMagno is a twit.

Meh.

Where's Ana?

"The "incivility" in their tones tell me they would be much more happy following "pro rasslin" than the political blogs."

Redstate and FreeRepublic are usually cited as classic examples of the "pro wrestling" style of discourse you are referring to. In other words, they started it!

F--- incivility. Politics ain't beanbag.

I am part of the North Carolina opera crowd. We are growing in numbers. Just the other day, my kin folk went to see M. Butterfly. They thought it was a nature performance, but it's progress.

Mudcat, ya started just like Klein.

Basically calling people names, while accusing them of being name callers isn't a way to win an argument, influence people or make friends.

So this guy (Mudcat) is working for Edwards and offended his most ardent supporters? Nice work dude - Shrum couldn't have helped Edwards any better.

How about dealing with the criticisms of Glenn Greenwald, which echoes the comments in the Klein thread, sans any bad words ("Oh noes!")

Note, for instance, the snide use of quotation marks for "perjury" -- as though Libby's conviction constitutes that crime only in theory, in the most technical and meaningless sense (if at all). And then there is Klein's transparent attempt to minimize Libby's crimes by characterizing it as a mere matter of inaccurately recounting "which reporters [Libby] talked to" -- the standard "faulty-memory" excuse of Libby apologists which most of them (but not Klein) felt compelled to abandon once a jury unanimously found that Libby deliberately lied to the FBI and a Grand Jury on material matters.

And Klein deliberately makes no mention of the several felony counts of "obstruction of justice" and "false statements" for which Libby was convicted -- it's just "perjury." More dishonest still is Klein's underhanded attempt to insinuate that the conviction and sentencing are politically motivated (none of this would have happened "if he weren't Dick Cheney's hatchet man"), while Klein inexcusably conceals from his readers the fact that the prosecutor who prosecuted Libby and the judge who sentenced him are both Republicans and appointees of George W. Bush's administration.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/

I think you forgot your "irony" tag when you told all of us "uncivil" bloggers to go to Hell.

(See?! I can use quotation marks just like Joe Klein!)

I don't like opera, actually, and I have contributed to Edwards' campaign precisely because he acknowledges the growing gap between rich and poor in this country, and now Mudcat Saunders has gone out of his way to insult me.

But he has the earnest approval of a self-described "moderate Republican", who will be voting for Edwards when Rudy Guiliani is monogamous and John McCain grows his spine back.

Interesting tactic there, Mr "Regular American".

Are we sure this isn't Bob Shrum in a NASCAR hat?

"When Tony Snow's cancer returned, "liberal" "tolerant" bloggers on other sites, and perhaps this one, rejoiced and made statements desiring his death"

LIAR!

I confess to living in a big city, that has an opera house, and just wanted to offer an apology to Mudcrap for the fact that I exist, and have never had sex with my cousins.

BTW, this little "gambit" of Saunders to generate some traffic really exposes the entire "Fetid Wasteland" marketing plan: we hate the "blogosphere," but we need their numbers to convince our advertisers we're still relevant. So let's attack the "loony left" and let their outrage drive our "hits" into the stratosphere.

Genius! Except I'm ignoring Saunders for the rest of his tenure here. You should, too.

Love the way all the substantive comments left for Mr. Klein are totally ignored.

"There're only two types of people I can't stand: big-city liberals, and the intolerant."

Nice way to start a conversation.

"I woke up this morning and was going to start my stint as a guest correspondent by trying to kick up a dialogue on how my people in rural America are getting screwed into the stone ages."

One of the things I learned in college English about writing: go with your first instinct. You'd be a lot better off talking about rural America than trying to defend Joe Klein. Joe's a big boy, he can take care of himself.

Rural Americans screwed themselves into the stone ages, by continually voting for Republicans. God, guns and gays, right? So tell us how the party of secularism, gun control and tolerance is supposed to win them over, without compromising on those core principles of what it means to be a Democrat.

A friend of mine recently had something published in a pretty prominent on-line site, known for its well-educated readership. It was his first time there and he was really proud. Within about five minutes of his article being posted, he was attacked and called all sorts of names. He was about to jump in and defend his good name, when the editors told him to lay off, the commenters are always like that, it's best not to take them seriously.

The problem with Swampland is the writers take the commenters way too seriously. Ignore them and your life will be much happier.

As for my fellow commenters, Mudcat is out there in the trenches, not just playing on his computer. Yes, you all are smart and have a lot to say, but if you listen, you may just learn something too.

You know we might as well give up being civil and reasonable and just start acting like the straw man Klein, and this farm boy here, continue to insist we are.

"If you want a perfect example of how this "intolerance" is helping the Democrats lose national elections"

How did the last national election in 2006 go, I can't remember that far back? Was that the one where Democrats finally stood up and stopped pretending to be Republican-lite? I think that was the one. How many seats did incumbent Democrats lose? None?

If you're the rural liason for Edwards, then I'm the voter Edwards just lost for seriously poor judgment in trying to use your advice to lure voters like me.

Shorter Mudcat:

"I want to blog, but I don't want to blog for an audience that is uncivil and calls people names, and I especially don't want to chat with stupid @%!%$ elitist upitty Puccini bloggers!"

Swampland is a parody sometimes. And it seems to just write itself. If it's not Klein someone like this. Hysterical

This is almost too ridiculous to be actually true. Is it April Fools all over again?

Being put in hell for eternity being tormented by demons, satan, brimstone, and fire is not a good thing.

We should all go to hell? How rude!

Maybe it's because we are incivil unlike you that we belong there.

Next guest blogger will be Denny Hastert giving us diet tips, followed by Larry King giving us a pep talk on how to keep a marriage going strong. I wasn't supposed to let the cat out of the bag, but the rumor is that Bob Novak is coming along too for etiquette and charm blogging. Mark your calendars down for that one.

A few more tips about the internet and blog posting in general.

1) Any public space will attract trolls, people who post with the specific intent of boosting their own ego though the misery of others. They will post intentionally inflammatory statements with this goal in mind (and trolls gleefully work both sides of the political fence to this end.)

2) This is a particularly high profile bit of space and will just be that more attractive to trolls.

3) A direct response to a post is pretty much a reward. If someone posts something insightful, well thought out or at the very least, earnestly asked respond to them, by all means. Don't let yourself get baited by the flames. Trolls don't get the concept of "bad attention". So as far as moderation goes you only have a carrot. A stick would require some action by the techs to block or ban repeat offenders.

Good luck and enjoy the ride.

P.S. It might be worth while to get a little advice on how to include html links in your post. The better class of bloggers like to be able to see the source and will respond in kind with some rather well reasoned responces (which I assuming you'd like to cultivate.)

Wait, so Joe Klein is a bastion of anti-elitism, and various bloggers all over the country are elites?

I don't think that word means what you think it means, Mudcat.

name some names of those mean, rude eastcoastliberalelites who caused such trauma to the poor, old country boy... mymymy -- quite the watb, aren't you.

It isn't "intolerance" which has been losing Democrats elections in the past, it's the failure to stand up to the right-wing's incivility and abuse, and the pussyfooting attempts to look like "republican-lite."

Walking into the conversation with this "you're all pansies, let's fight" attitude is just about guaranteed to get you a serious beat-down, Mudcat, `cause you've got a very wrong idea about who you're dealing with here, I think. I suggest you step outside, think about it, and try your entrance again...

Earth to Time Magazine:

I'm guessing Russ Feingold is available.

Thanks....

"Which Democratic bloggers would those be, exactly? Kos? Atrios? Greenwald?"

well, a number of bloggers did point out that Saunders insistence that Democrats be tolerant of white racist southerners was incompatible with Democratic Party values...

but they were pretty civil. They just made Saunders look like the as$hat that he is while being civil.

Hey, Mudcat, you silly windbag. You name call like everyone else and also sound very angry. Hmm could it be you've just discovered you're not one of the intellectually superior? As for your anger, meds might help.

Hey, Mudcat, you silly windbag. You name call like everyone else and also sound very angry. Hmm could it be you've just discovered you're not one of the intellectually superior? As for your anger, meds might help.

Hey, Mudcat, you silly windbag. You name call like everyone else and also sound very angry. Hmm could it be you've just discovered you're not one of the intellectually superior? As for your anger, meds might help.

Tough country boy like you, I thought you'd be able to take that switch to your a** like a man.

Guess not.

As to the title of this dreck, could you even be more narcissistically attention seeking?

Don't hate just because Tom Schaller handed you your a**, over and over again.

"As for my fellow commenters, Mudcat is out there in the trenches, not just playing on his computer. Yes, you all are smart and have a lot to say, but if you listen, you may just learn something too."

Listen to what? He spends two paragraphs talking about his desire to get to the issues, then launches into four paragraphs of a hate-filled, angry, intolerant screed about how he hates hate-filled, angry, intolerant screeds.

If he actually had something to say, he should have said it. Now he's gratuitously poisoned the well for whole of his posting. And this guy's a political strategist? Some strategy.

"I thought blogging was for exchange of ideas, not personal attacks."

"I don't care what the "Metropolitan Wing" of my party thinks. I don't like them. The damage the pseudo-intellectuals have done to my party by abandoning tolerance, combined with their erroneous stereotyping of my people and culture..."

"...those Democratic bloggers, who have appointed themselves as intellectually superior and believe the only way to win an argument is to shot the loudest with personal attacks, you can go to Hell."

"The "incivility" in their tones tell me they would be much more happy following "pro rasslin" than the political blogs."

Mudcat, your whole routine is about promoting negative stereotypes about Democrats and the Democratic Party. Do you have any idea how much damage you've done to the Democratic Party over the years by promoting GOP talking points about the "Metropolitan Wing" of the Democratic Party?

You're free to carry on with your "Democrats are all a bunch of big-city hypocrites" routine, but let's at least be clear about whose water you're carrying. You may call yourself a "Democratic strategist," but the strategic interests you're advancing are those of the Republican Party.

Hmm, I think I'm starting to get a sense of why the Weekly Standard (not to mention Jay Carney) like Mudcap.

Shorter Mudcat

"I don't understand blogging, but I do know that the people who comment at Swampland are bad for America because they pick on Joe Klein."

Welcome, Mudcat!

This site is hilarious.

> Wow, what a transparent, pathetic attempt
> to get some "hits."

That's obviously part of it. But methinks that Mr. Klein is getting a bit uncomfortable with the spotlight being trained on him, and a little angry with the people who point out the flaws in his essays. So the selection of this "Mudcat" (whoever he is) is a bit of a Rovian poke in the eye at the commentors here: "Take THAT, you stupid jerks" sort of thing.

Cranky

Troll ratings for "Mudcat":

"F"

Faux-concern trolls are SOOOO 2006. Whining about "incivility" and "elitism" are, of course, staples of a right-wing troll, but Mudcat's efforts are just stale and without any hint of fun or effort. "The Metropolitan Opera Wing of the Democratic party"? is it's best line? Even if we ignore the patently incorrect usage of Democratic as an adjective (s/b Democrat, of course), there's still the larger error- forgetting that all democrats are Limousine LIEbruls, or Welfare Queens- NOT anything to do with the opera (though I guess you COULD take your limousine to the opera). More to the point though, he makes outrageous claims that the Democrat party could win votes in the South. That's akin to troll treason! Every troll knows in its heart that people in the South only vote for the glorious party of Jesus, aka the GOP. Troll needs to do its homework before trying to play ball in the big leagues, or "rassle" in the WWE, or whatever metaphor it can understand.

I'll mention something no one has yet: Mudcat's grand embrace of white male victimhood.

Poor put upon Mudcat. Poor put upon Joe Klein. Poor put upon Scooter Libby.

". . . how my people in rural America are getting screwed into the stone ages."

yes, the Northeast volvo liberals abandonded mudcat's rural people, so they fixed us real good by voting for, wait for it . . . the people screwing them into the stone ages. Republicans controled all three branches of government up until last november, so it seems to me that blame for how government is screwing your people rests witht the people your people are voting for. We powerless northeast liberals are not responsible for your problems. Nixon's southern strategy worked.

Pardom my tone if you feel I am not civil enough is my disagreement, but I feel as I have adopted a tone similar to yours, mudcat.

Echoing what Jim said. We need a serious discussion of why working class southern people are voting Republican against their interests because the Republicans promise to bash gays, put a lockbox on the womb. They vote instead for the people opposed to sound social services, and decent paychecks.

Or we could all go to hell.

I can see that you're new at this. Otherwise you'd realize that "mean people suck" is not a new thought in online circles, and has a rich history on this very site.

You also appear to have missed that some of the alpha elitists are your cobloggers.

It's a game they play, Swampland folks and the unwashed hordes. Someone on Swampland inserts a parenthetical aside about the stinkiness of bloggers, bloggers predictably swarm to respond, and TimeWarner gets some advertising revenue. Periodically we get a whole post about it.

There are people who write here as if they're trying to communicate, and there are people who write here as if they're writing for a troll blog. I'd be willing to bet that if you look at the less pugnacious writers, you'll find that they get far less pugnacious comments.

I can see that you don't intend to be one of them.

Anyway what's wrong with a little rasslin', I thought Rural Americans liked that kind of thing, almost as much as NASCAR. And we just got Jon Tester, who "looks like a high-school wrestling coach," elected to the Senate. Rasslin's in the air.

Found an interesting profile of Mudcat from 2003. It's at http://www.roanoke.com/roatimes/news/story160387.html for anyone interested.

I just wanted to hit on one quote by Mudcat in that article (quoted with context, for clarity):

"Saunders' sharp-tongued remarks have appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post and the Christian Science Monitor, on CNN, MSNBC and the CBS Evening News.

"Saunders told them all that a Democratic presidential candidate can appeal to those voters if they show respect for gun rights and avoid letting social issues define their campaigns. If Democrats can 'get through the culture,' they then can get rural voters to listen to their ideas about the economy, jobs and health care, Saunders argued.

"In other words, Saunders said in a recent interview at his home along Back Creek , Democrats have to overcome 'the wuss factor.' "

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpret that as you saying the gun issue and "social issues" (kind of a broad brush, there, don't you think? But I'm guessing abortion and gays, right?) break against Democrats, right?

Funny, when the majority of Americans support gun control and women's choice, not to mention equal rights for all people regardless of color, creed, or sexual orientation.

Shorter me: I think 2006 proved that your opinion (if it's still your opinion), Mudcat, is sadly outdated.

As a social critic of Red State America, Mr. Saunders must maintain some rural street cred in order to be effective in changing the minds of his people. If he just went all whack-job lefty and tongued Duncan in public his people would tune him out. So let's cut the brother some slack and let him get his little CYA post out of the way and hopefully in his next post he will tell us exactly who is screwing his people back to the stone age.

"Go to Hell" must be rural speak for "Hello! Nice to meet you!"

Well in that case -- you can go to Hell to too, Mudact!

I'm curious, Mudcap, do you care what the elitist, "Metropolitan Opera" wing of the Republican party thinks? What about the "damage the pseudo-intellectuals" on the Republican side -- Exihibit A, your predecessor here, Dick Armey -- have done? Talking about "abandoning tolerance", have you noticed any by the party of Lincoln? What do you think about the "fierce, bullying, often witless tone of intolerance" on the right, or do you somehow think that is the special province of the left?

Sinfonian,

Instead of picking up on AllesandroMagno's overstatement perhaps you could address his (and Mudcat's) main point - that they feel alienated from the Democratic party by its elitist wing. Are they on to something or are they way off base?

Mudcat is so alienated he gets paid large sums of money to consult for major political candidates.

Hey Mudcat!

Here'a a few questions to get you started:

(1) Do you think perjury should be a crime? Do you think convicted perjurers who have shown no contrition should be let out of all jail time? Do you think perjury should always be written as "perjury," as if to highlight how minor and meaningless it is? Why or why not?

(2) Do you think that anyone who opposes the never-ending disastrous Iraq occupation is, by definition, arguing for a "precipitous withdrawal"?

(3) Do you think George Bush is a good President? Why or why not?

(4) Do you think habeus corpus is a good or bad idea? Why or why not?

(5) Do you think Gitmo enhances American prestige around the world?

(6) Do you think the anthrax case should be investigated and the perpetrators punished?? Do you find it odd that the anthrax was sent only to Democrats and purported liberals?

(7) Do you agree with Dick Armey that Social Security should be destroyed (or, rather, that the Republican should get their grubby hands on the trust fund?)

(8) Why do you insult Democrats and liberals in your very first post?

Do you have enough sense to pound sand into a rathole?? Do you keep dead cats on the porch?

> how my people in rural America are getting screwed into the stone ages.

Aren't they getting screwed by real estate developers pricing out formerly rural land? And crass political consultant reducing millions of people to a single cardboard Bubba stereotype?

Oh, wait...

kellerkraft:

Who and where is this "elitist wing" of the Democratic party that you speak of, and name a specific person that is representative of such a wing. I need some context.

Thanks!

kellerkraft:

Who and where is this "elitist wing" of the Democratic party that you speak of, and name a specific person that is representative of such a wing. I need some context.

Thanks!

Christ, leave the door open and the f**king flies come in.

Oh, by the way, we opera-loving radical lefty intolerant elitist arrogant pseudo-intellectuals are quite sensitive and take insulting comments such as your opening tirade to heart. However, it seems somehow inappropriate to begin a first blog post with a lecture and a toad-strangling flood of invective against potential readers.

Far be it from me to criticize, but I think that people like yourself and joke line have simply failed to keep up with the times. You're disoriented and lashing out at those who could help you.

We arrogant lefty bloggers, on the other hand, know who and what the enemy is.

Mudcat,

You accuse many in the democratic party of being incivil and elitist but you fall into the trap that many from the midwest do and fail to realize that if goes both ways. Many of us "elitists" are tired of being attacked for "not being real americans" simply because we're not from the midwest. And if you don't believe me, Ford has an entire ad campaign advertising their trucks by highlighting the midwest with the background track "This is our country". You don't think that annoys the rest of us? How is it any better for you to attack the elitists for enjoying the opera than the elitists attack you for going to the rodeo (been to both within the last six months in nyc by the way)

And I say this while in full agreement that the higher ups in the party have drifted towards taking care of business interests ahead of the common man and weakened the vital unions in this country. But you need to realize that the so called "rednecks" are just as snooby and proud as the "elitists". And the sooner both sides start acting like adults and put away the name calling, the sooner we'll make some actual progress

This is a joke, right?

I mean how else can I respond to whining about criticism of Klien's dismissal of the rule-of-law, except with laughter.

Come on MudMan, give me something to chew on besides whining.

If you want to see why "support" of Libby is hypocritical please check out:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/?last_story=/opinion/greenwald/2007/06/11/perjury/

That is the level of detail you need to respond with. Try and articulate some possible reason why Libby should not do hard time, rather then just whine about how your pal Joey gets spat on when he carries water for the current occupant and his corrupt cronies.

Mudcat:

Bloggers, by and large, aren't genteel opera fans by night, flamethrowers by day... And for someone that's capable of writing truly stupid crap like this... well... I suppose you're suspicious that anyone with more IQ points than teeth is a "pseudo-intellectual"...

I wonder if you see the irony in attacking the most strident supporters of your party (and the candidate you're working for) for their "incivility" by constructing offensive straw man after offensive straw man...

Isn't Joke Line a part of the Metropolitan Wing? Namely, not really a Democrat, but likes to play one on teevee?

Did Mudcat just insult Joke Line, or is he throwing feces at a strawman? Mudcat, please elaborate and NAME NAMES of the people you don't like. Since you don't like them, there's no need to keep their identities secret, right? Right? RIGHT?!

I think you need to start over.

Mudcap,
The vast majority of Americans (69%) oppose pardoning Scooter Libby according to a CNN poll. Heck, support for a pardon barely came in second. It only beat "don't know" by 5%. Being outraged by Libby deceptions that were part of the pro-war information campaign is a mainstream American position. Being an apologist for Libby is an elitism position.

Kellerkraft said: "Sinfonian,

Instead of picking up on AllesandroMagno's overstatement perhaps you could address his (and Mudcat's) main point - that they feel alienated from the Democratic party by its elitist wing. Are they on to something or are they way off base?"

It certainly would be easier to address the substance of the issue if I knew exactly what the "elitist wing" was. If it's an attack on the wealthy or something, that's one thing (and I dare say under that definition, the Republicans have it all over the Democrats on elitism). If it's that the "wing" is well-educated, well, I don't really see how that's a negative thing.

I don't think it's a matter of elitism. I think it's a matter of willful disregard of points that might lead to cognitive dissonance. For example, saying that lefty bloggers are uncivil without (1) citing examples or (2) citing similar examples on the right is disingenuous at best. Moreover, the generalizations of the "elite," again without giving examples, do nothing to support their argument.

I don't know why they feel alientated, kellerkraft. I'm willing to listen, but it's kind of hard when the discussion starts off by accusing me (as a lefty blogger) of being uncivil and telling me to "go to hell."

Mudcap,
The vast majority of Americans (69%) oppose pardoning Scooter Libby according to a CNN poll. Heck, support for a pardon barely came in second. It only beat "don't know" by 5%. Being outraged by Libby deceptions that were part of the pro-war information campaign is a mainstream American position. Being an apologist for Libby is an elitist position.

Anonymous:

http://www.glennbeck.com/archives/03-29-07.shtml

And then there were the comments left at the HuffingtonPost web site, later removed in order to reduce the backlash against the psychiatrically-deranged left wingers stating such nonsense.

Of course, I could have said all of what I just said more succinctly like mikel1814 did.

Oh well, I guess I'm just too elitist.

Now where did I put my champagne glass?

likusiak:
"And, you are precisely the kind of person most of us despise."

Count me out. And, I can speak for myself!

For too long the Democratic Party has given up on areas, the rural South in particular, and tried to win with damage control in the rest of the country. This strategy has only led to two narrow presidential defeats and needs an overhaul.

Howard Dean broke the mold with his 50 state plan and look what happened to congress last year. There is no reason this can't carry over into the presidential race, and a state like Virginia could very possibly go blue in 2008.

Well Mudcat, despite the good 'ol boy nickname, looks to me from all the comments above, that the dirty filthy hippies out here on the intertubes have judged you to be part of the insider beltway problem, not part of the solution.

Could we all be wrong? Maybe. But I doubt it. Record shows that the DLC, Third Way, "civility" route has led to loss after loss over the last decade but when the netroots finally got mad and started demanding a little spine from Democratic politicians, things finally turned around in '06.

Maybe a little incivility "kick the bastards out" activism is called for. I know it's tough on you guys feeding off the current system but you know what? We don't care. Thomas Jefferson said “Every generation needs a new revolution.” You and Joe Klein and David Broder have had your 20 years, in fact let's call it 40 years, it's time to make way for a new generation.

S'funny that polls show the runaway leading candidate on the Republican side is a pro-choice anti-gun northeastern millionaire ethnic (non-practicing) Catholic who bonded with his roommates, the two rich guys in the domestic partnership, over their mutual love of opera.

Maybe Republican primary voters are just more liberal than the Democrats are.

AlessandroMagno said: "Anonymous:

http://www.glennbeck.com/archives/03-29-07.shtml

And then there were the comments left at the HuffingtonPost web site, later removed in order to reduce the backlash against the psychiatrically-deranged left wingers stating such nonsense."

First of all, your link doesn't work, or at least it doesn't go to anything supporting your argument.

Secondly, I grant you that there are idiots posting comments that are hateful. However, (1) I haven't seen any bloggers (as distinguished from commenters, who could just be middle school kids with Cheeto-stained hands or, perish the thought, RIGHT-WING POSEURS!) who said anything like you allege, and (2) for every hateful comment from the left about Snow, I'll show you three from the right about Johnson or Gilliard.

As Mudcat himself might say about the "incivility" argument, that dog won't hunt.

Well, Mudcat, you sure opened a can of worms here, didn't you? As someone who's done a bit of blogging myself, all I can say is AMEN. It gets more than a bit tiresome to have to slog through the rants and name-calling to find a good discussion on the merits sometimes. But, and here's where I might disagree some, it's worth it. There are some wonderful folks online, as I'm sure you know or will find, and while some might at first blush seem overly prone to less than calm discourse, they are dedicated to the same type of changes in our country that you are.

It helps to note that there are flamethrowers on both sides of the aisle as well. The post above about Joe Klein's name-calling is absolutely right -- he often takes off after those who just disagree with him, labeling them stupid or much worse. You noticed, I hope, the one about your friend and mine, John Edwards:

John Edwards: "Edwards' line of work: ambulance-chaser"
"skeevy ambulance chasers (probably) contributing to his campaign"
Reason: Edwards is a Democrat with money

So, put on your galoshes and raingear and welcome to the new Wild West of the blogosphere. I'm sure you'll do just fine!

"And then there were the comments left at the HuffingtonPost web site, later removed in order to reduce the backlash against the psychiatrically-deranged left wingers stating such nonsense."

So it wasn't a blogger, it was a commenter. If I wanted to get in a pissing match, I could go find as many, and probably far more, similar comments about Molly Ivin, Tim Johnson, Elizabeth Edwards...

I suppose your error stems from ignorance rather than dishonesty, but now that you know the difference, please stop spreading the convenient lie.

Libby was convicted by a jury of his peers. He was prosecuted by a prosecutor who was appointed as a U.S. Attorney by George W. Bush. Patrick Fitzgerald was pretty much universally lauded for his record of fairness when he was named to be the Special Counsel. But then he ended up successfully prosecuting a Bush Administration official and suddenly we're supposed to believe that he's a hack.

AlessandroMagno --
'"liberal" "tolerant" bloggers on other sites, and perhaps this one, rejoiced and made statements desiring his death.'
http://www.glennbeck.com/archives/03-29-07.shtml

And GLENN BECK is an example of "liberal" and "tolerant"??? Any who commented so nastily on his site were likely pretending to be "liberal."

You might want to look in the Swampland archives for the posts and comments on Snow.

However, as a pilgrim in the blogosphere, I thought blogging was for exchange of ideas, not personal attacks.

Hahahaha, oh, no... God, no, no, no. I mean really. No. Ah. The Internet.

Mudcat is a Democrat who has done more for the party than can be acknowledged.

That majority in the Senate? Thank him.

Maybe the reason you all think the south is a no-go zone is becuase you all have an imagined childish image of it, where everyone is evil and the only party they like is that evil republican party. Grow up.

Their are Democrats in the south, and there are people in the south who don't know they are Democrats yet, and there are people who need to vote more often, and... theres a lot of work to be done to strengthen the democratic party in the south. But it should be done, and I appluad Mudcat's hard work and dedication.

The country is split into five areas right now;
Northeast - Democratic
West Coast - Democratic
Midwest - The Wild Card
South - Republican
Rocky Mountians - Republican

Thats how its all divied up right now. The DNC and RNC are obviously fighting like Micheal Vick's Pit Bulls ove the Midwest. But what about the rest of the country? Little or no attention from the national level as far as persuasion.

How are we going to have a sustainable majority of representatives if we don't have a sustainable majority of voters?

Thats why we need the South.
Thats why we need Mudcat.

Hillbillie Dem said: "Mudcat is a Democrat who has done more for the party than can be acknowledged.

That majority in the Senate? Thank him."

I don't deny Mudcat's Dem creds. He's certainly entitled to his opinions.

However, thanks all the same, but I'll be thanking DNC Chair Howard Dean and the 50-State Strategy for the majority in the Senate.

Hi, and welcome.

And thanks for beginning your visit here by
(1) spouting a Republican talking point (all lefty bloggers are mean to me bwahhhh!) (2) doing exactly what you claim to hate.

I can go to Hell, sir???? Are you claiming to be God, perchance?

Someone needs a crash course on dealing with Internet etiquette (or lack thereof).

Fact #1: There are always trolls.

Rule #1: Don't feed the trolls.

Fact #2: Every single race/religion/party/whatever-group-you-want-to-name has its own share of trolls.

Rule #2: Don't feed the trolls.

Fact #3: Trolls are usually loud and annoying.

Rule #3: Don't feed the trolls.

Rocky Mountians - Republican

Really? I live in Colorado, our governor and one of our Senators, as well as Bill Richardson, John Tester, Harry Reid, Janet Napolitano, Brian Schweitzer, Max Baucus, Jeff Bingaman and a whole host of Democratic US Reps might take issue with that.

As for whether or not "we need Mudcat", if he ever does anything but spew his anger at the angry people under his bed, maybe I'll agree with that.

His first post was promising for two paragraphs, then, apparently, the meds wore off.

I just want to say I feel insulted and slighted for being called an opera fan!!

nyuck, nyuck.

Why are some posts held and some posted? I wrote something reasoned and in response which is being held.

>Unless fourth estate integrity has been compromised, there is no rationale for calling him a "jackass", "fool", or "elite white guy".

Says who? The rationale for calling someone a "jackass" has to do with them being a jackass regardless of venue, and you don't get to define where and when it's appropriate. Last I heard, jackassery was not confined to the realm of "fourth estate integrity", and while calling people names isn't typically my style, I concur with the sentiment of anyone who said it. Klein's opinion on Libby betrays either lack of appreciation of the seriousness of perjury in general *or* a sense of exceptionalism in the specific case of Scooter Libby.

In either case, a man on the national stage can rightly be criticized as a jackass for opining as Joe did.

and fourth estate integrity has been compromised by the likes of J.Klein. Keep that in mind , buddy.
And the likes of Klein helped the Bush unlawful regime run amok in this country.
Actually we plain folks from the villages don't like you, "Metropolitan kinda liberals "
So you epithet had a wrong address

"Maybe the reason you all think the south is a no-go zone is becuase you all have an imagined childish image of it, where everyone is evil and the only party they like is that evil republican party. Grow up."

Uhhh, nobody said that, and that's not what Mudcat is arguing here. 50 state strategy, liberal bloggers think that we should engage the South.

I hope you're just having growing pains in a new medium, Mudcat.

Because I was seriously considering voting for Edwards.

Now that I've read your bile, I'm serious reconsidering.

I agree . . . "Who is Mudcat and why should we care?"

MIS Philadelphia:

I never stated that Glenn Beck was liberal or tolerant. He's neither. I provided a link which highlighted liberal posts wishing death upon Tony Snow. From the same left that's supposed to be "tolerant" and "progressive". I know full well that Glenn is conservative.

Oh, and the democratic party boasts some truly "progressive" people, like Byrd, that KKK senator from WV...even Truman was a member of the KKK. Some "tolerance"...

Then there are those who openly claim tolerance in public statements, yet vote against minorities who are attempting to gain senate approval for their positions. People like Kerry who always vote against minorites, whether they be black, hispanic, Italian-American, etc.

There are good democrats, no doubt...people who have nothing but disdain for the hypocrites and maniacs of the far left, but recently they've been muted by the shrill screams of these extremists.

Don't get me wrong: the bible-thumpers from my party are equally annoying, but at least they have one redeeming quality: they're much more likely to volunteer both their time and money to charities and missions which help the desperately poor. liberals just want to whine about the problems in their coffeeshops, but rarely venture to lift a finger when it comes time to act.

Mudcat, the majority of the people you insulted with your first post vote for the party least likely to screw your people into the stone age - the Democrats. Maybe if you would help explain to your people that they're rebelling against GOP talking point stereotypes instead of us metropolitan liberals, they might start to get it. No, I do not want to take away your bible and guns and make you gay.

Instead of insulting us, why not elaborate on why your people feel alienated by us elitists? But, don't just repeat GOP talking points. Making redneck jokes is not a reason. And, I resent being considered unamerican because I don't particularly like nascar and I don't own a gun or hunt.

I am reminded of a quote from a midwestern man after the 2004 election - he was voting Republican because he was getting back at the liberals running wall street. He was voting republican to get back at wall street. Help him understand why he wasn't getting back at wall street by voting republican. Ok, then.

"Oh, and the democratic party boasts some truly "progressive" people, like Byrd, that KKK senator from WV..."

almost a century ago, and he has called it the biggest mistake and one of the greatest regrets of his life. The fact that you throw that out is an insight into your character and intellect.

"People like Kerry who always vote against minorites, whether they be black, hispanic, Italian-American, etc."

That's just stupid. What are you talking about?

Gee, Mudcat, sounds to me like you must be one of those Fox News Democrats. You know, the kind who is a Democrat, but pretty much hates Democrats.

Following up your interminable whining about being stereotyped with a bunch of stereotypes about "elitists" and the "Metropolitan Opera wing" of the Democratic Party? Pretty pathetic, really.

Memo to Mudcat: The whole country is not a bunch of Southern white boys. Get over it. If you want to have a chip on your shoulder about it, fine. If you want to vote Republican, fine. And if you just want to go away, that's fine, too. You can take your lectures about "losing national elections" with you, too, because while you've been so busy feeling sorry for yourself the country is changing.

Re: Harry Truman and the KKK:

Truman paid a $10 fee for admission and promptly asked for it back. He was never initiated and never attended a meeting.

[Truman, Margaret. Harry S. Truman. William Morrow and Co. (1973); Hamby, Alonzo L. Man of the People: A Life of Harry S. Truman (1995).]

Please re-read your right-wing talking points for tomorrow's test.

Sinfonian:

Ah, but he paid for it, so therefore he was of the persuasion, no? Otherwise he never would have considered joining that organization.

You lose.

Please re-read your left wing propaganda talking points for tomorrow's test.

No, Alessandro, he was told it was politically essential to join the KKK if he wanted to be a candidate in the South, but he found he couldn't swallow it. The voters, happily, voted for competence anyway.

I really don't know that as a supporter of Mr. Saunders' thesis you want to go into that particular story too closely.

Mr. Saunders,

I can see that quite a few folks have already explained to you what a silly person you are. So far, Pachucatec's is my favorite, but I'm willing to bet someone will one-up him eventually.

Here's a clue about rural voters - they want us out of Iraq, and the Democrats, thanks to the advice of people like you, aren't doing it. Democrats have it in their power to gain some popularity with these people by actually doing something that helps them. Rural communities have provided a disproportionately large portion of our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. Yet you keep warning the Democrats how badly they'll be criticized by the Republicans if they actually take a stand. Apparently, only metropolitan elitists think that the worst thing in politics is to be treated nicely by people who are destroying our country's security for short term profit when you're in the opposition. Having only lived in a rural area for a decade, I think Inevertheless can say that they're more impressed with action than with talk.

It's ironic that you accuse your opponents of being opera lovers. All that screeching and bellowing would seem to be just the thing you'd go for - or do you just hate the competition?

So, please, go hide back in whatever hole you crawled out of and let us metropolitan elitist sissies fight to win back our country. You and all the other loudmouth consultants can come out and pose over the body afteward. It's the only thing you're any good at.

"So to those bloggers who believe in a straight-forward dialogue and exchange of ideas, God bless you and thank you."

I believe in a straightforward dialogue and exchange of ideas; so do lots of other people. Your simplistic stereotyping ('Metropolitan opera wing') makes it clear that you aren't one of them.

Mudcat Saunders has points about how the rural folks are often forgotten and more polls are beginning to show that the American electorate do not care for Beltway slickers anymore. That said, I don't care for Joe Klein's oft-misguided posts and articles, but he is entitled to his opinions as long as everyone knows they are just opinions and not passed off as investigative reporting.

Julia,

If he "couldn't swallow it", he would never have sent the check to begin with.

And segregation laws persisted under his Presidency, did they not?

Again, the left loses.

What a thoroughly uncouth fellow this "Mudcat" seems to be. I was just remarking to my friend H.W. Billingsworth IV as we entered the Alice Tully Hall for a delightful evening of Chopin études that the Democratic party would be far better off without these unlettered Southern bumpkins -- and that, in order to conduct our purge of the party most effectively, we must leave nasty comments on Joe Klein's blog. H.W. agreed with me completely, even though he acknowledged that in attributing nasty blog comments to the Metropolitan Opera wing of the party, I had failed to make a damn lick of sense.

Ah! Rigoletto is starting. I must be off! Begone, Mudcat, and don't let the French doors strike your derrière on the way out.

What a fake. His very name is a fake - who calls him Mudcat anyway? It is such a used car salesman gimmick - give yourself a funky nickname. The guy made his bucks in land development in Roanoke county, and the prime directive of land developers is to drive out the rural poor to make room for the opera going wealthy - great location and great countryside included in your mcmansion package. As for the defense of Joe Klein, you can't be more pathetic.

Is it really that hard for Time to find articulate voices? Who is on the hiring committee, anyway?

A hint, Alessandro - simultaneously drumming your feet and chanting "lalalaI'mnotlistening" is the most effective way to carry off that particular mode of argument.

Mudcat, welcome. I personally know how it feels to be a foreigner - I'm an English import, and so I can relate to your feelings of alienation from much of the Democratic elite. I don't see that the Democrats will go much of anywhere, unless they stop the squabbling, lose some of the more pointless big names, and generally rediscover politics with some