Bush's VFW Speech

Yeah, I'm thinking that telling the public that everything is fine because Iraq is just like Vietnam isn't going to change too many minds. Then again, I thought that arming death squads on both sides of the sectarian divide was probably a bad idea in the long run, so what do I know? Little Mikey O'Hanlon said it's all going to be peachy!

Karen - Please go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolchsto%C3%9Flegende

This is what Progressives have been facing for the past thirty years. It is vile and disgusting but they will get away with it unless they are called on it explicitly.

With this administration, it was politics prior to invading Iraq and it has been politics ever since. They displayed their incompetence from the beginning of the war in Afghanistan (Tora Bora...pulling troops for the invasion of Iraq) thru the invasion and occupation of Iraq. They had no record of competence, so they used politics. Now, we are getting more of the same with regards to Iran. Claims, claims and more claims, yet no evidence. Congress needs to get over their fear of the neocons, call it like it is and have a smarter policy towards terrorism.

Jim Henley writes: "Millions of people died while we were there. A fair proportion of them were people we ourselves killed. In any reckoning of the costs of intervening and withdrawing from Indochina, those people count too. It’s a bizarre, narcissistic blind spot to imagine otherwise."
http://highclearing.com/index.php/archives/2007/08/22/7002

Even though far fewer Americans have died, I think that Iraq has actually been worse for US interests than Vietnam. (Still too early to tell which is the worse humanitarian catastrophe). Worse in terms of our image abroad, and worse in terms of increasing the likelihood of attacks on US civilians.

A master stroke by the president in getting this conversation started.

Also, there is no reason to believe that this administration is willing or able to fix the situation in Iraq.

Libs love Boat People!

Hell, they CREATED Boat People!

Karen, for us who are less in the know, who is Robert Dallek? The LA Times article you linked to is behind a registration wall.

Thanks in advance.

And the troll so wonderfully proves Terrapin's point....

LBJ fought an entrenched, Don't Cross The DMZ campaign which doomed U.S. forces to failure -- despite their never losing a major battle in Nam (including Tet).

We should not AGAIN tie our own hands by limiting anything, withdrawing anything, or openly second-guessing anything, until the enemy is down and Iran is defused.

Yes, we make some mistakes, in planning and on the ground. Happens in every war, not just this one.

That does not detract from the need for this action, the goal being a free, fair, and self-determined Iraq, that is not another Stalinist shell of an excuse for failed UN diplomacy and Iranian exports of world terror.

I think invoking Vietnam is great, because now he has opened up a pandora's box of discussion. In the end, he will make himself look even more stupid than he already is.

He and his Looneys have "repackaged" and "repainted" Iraq so many times I've lost count! He is worse than a telephone solicitor that won't take no for an answer.

He keeps coming back with a "reason" for fighting this war, then asks for more time, and when that one finally gets shot down, he comes up with another, and another, and another, ...

I think that using "management-style" arguments such as blaming Maliki for not being able to stop this war is as stupid as demanding that the people in Yucatan stop Hurricane Dean. The civil war isn't going to stop until ALL Iraqis want it to stop - and that's not within our abilities to impose.

When we fought in Vietnam, the "Domino Effect" was the ideology behind that war, this one is the "Bush Doctrine".

The Administrations' tactics are delay tactics, just like the Gonzalas issue, the Warrentless Wiretap issue, corruptions issues, etc.

I think the R's should put Tom DeLay up as prez, then, at least, his name will be true to their cause, and will encapsulate the Republican strategy for nearly everything.

So, does Bush think we should have never left Vietnam? Does he think we should have a military base in every country? He may have opened a Pandoras box by bringing Vietnam up now. Of course there may be a blood bath when we leave but how is that different then what is going on now? I really do not believe that the Iraqis want the terrorists in thier country anymore then us. They want all of us to go and I have a feeling that when we go they will make sure that the terrorists go too.

Is he deaf? I do not think the answer here is to set ourselves up in permanent military bases in the middle east. They do not want us there!

Why does Bush compare his Iraq war to the Vietnam War where he dodged the draft? How can he make this comparison without feeling like the gutless chickenhawk we all know he is?

If somebody today told me that in 30 years, if we pull out now, the Gap will be making boxer shorts in the Islamic Republic of Mesopotamia or The People's Republic of Kurdistan, as well as Vietnam, I'd tell GI Joe to pack his bags today.

But everybody knows that Vietnam and Iraq are different for one key reason: Bush and Cheney HAD a plan for getting out of Vietnam...

And don't you think referencing the killing fields is a little risky since Kissinger and Nixon's interference in Cambodia with the overthrow of Prince Sihanouk and the installation of military puppet Marshal Lon Nol led directly to the Cambodian Holocaust?

That prior to our intervention Cambodia was peaceful and the Khmer Rouge were an insignificant fringe?

That the killing fields had nothing to do with our withdrawal from Vietnam and that it was actually the intervention of the Vietnamese Communists who stopped the massacre?

Is it beyond the capability of our modern media to note that a politician is lying? I'm not talking about different shades of opinion but actually reinventing undisputed history?

I do hope Time does allow historians to vet this distortion of the past. But for some reason, I have a feeling it will not. Why start now?

Not the senator - You wrote"That the killing fields had nothing to do with our withdrawal from Vietnam and that it was actually the intervention of the Vietnamese Communists who stopped the massacre?"

Add to that the evidence that the CIA supported the Khmer Rouge for no other reason than because they were fighting the VC.

Best line of the Day: "But everybody knows that Vietnam and Iraq are different for one key reason: Bush and Cheney HAD a plan for getting out of Vietnam..." -Jamey

Let's see:

Vietnam: authorized by Gulf of Tonkin resolution based on non-existent attack by North Vietnam
Iraq: authorized by Congress based on non-existent weapons of mass destruction.
Check

Vietnam: troops sent in to try to prop up corrupt Diem government without the support of Vietnamese people
Iraq: troops sent in to try to prop up corrupt Maliki government without the support of Iraqi people
Check

Vietnam: justified by "domino theory" which viewed Vietnam as a vital check against the spread of Communism
Iraq: justified by a similar theory which views Iraq as a vital check against the spread of Islamic fundamentalism
Check

Vietnam: sent in troops without a clear idea of what objectives were to be achieved and how to get out if/when those objectives were met
Iraq: ditto
Check

Vietnam: ordinary Vietnamese, caught in the middle of a conflict not of their making, wind up getting killed by the thousands by both sides
Iraq: pretty much the same

Vietnam: army chases VC around country, with war boosters continually pointing to winning meaningless battles while ignoring lack of political progress
Iraq: "whack-a-mole" becomes new definition of success, with no political progress whatever
Check

Vietnam: faced with almost no justification left for continuing, war boosters resort to "sunk costs" excuse, i.e. "If we leave now, all those lost lives will be for nothing"
Iraq: just getting to that point
Check

Terrapin-

Didn't know that but it fits in with our actions throughout SE Asia where short-term solutions regularly turned into long-term disasters due to our lack and/or disregard of local knowledge.

Why does that sound so familiar?

But back when the war proponents were rejecting Vietnam comparisons, Jonah Goldberg told us we were soooo stupid -- Iraq is in a desert, Vietnam was in a jungle, and other pithy distinctions....

Sorry guys, found it. It was worse than I remember:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YjI4NDI5ZTMzZjVhNjNkYzlhZWFhMmUxZTEyOTA2NDU=

Look, I'm fine with folks who want to make the case that Iraq is this, that or another thing. If you want to argue it's a disaster, argue it's a disaster. If you want to make the case it's going swimmingly, that's cool too.

But can we please just drop the Vietnam analogies? It was a jungle war. It was a proxy conflict in the Cold War. It was a war in a country with a wildly different culture. We had a different politics. We had a draft and draftee army. The Civil Rights movement was in full flower. The domestic Left was more powerful, more radicalized and more listened to. Al Jazeera did not exist. Our media was controlled by a monopoly symbolized by Walter Cronkite's "the war is unwinnable" statememt. We had different weapons in Vietnam. Nor did satellite television and 24 hour cable news. Islam wasn't an issue. We didn't occupy the whole country. Some of these factors could easily be argued against our presence in Iraq. That's not the point. The point is that Vietnam is different. Our experience there illuminates, at best dimly, and often not at all what is happening today. Get over it.

What also drives me nuts about the Vietnam analogies is that there are obviously better examples in one sense or another from our own military history (the Phillipines perhaps?) and certainly from the British experience (everywhere). But either because the authors of op-eds don't want to do that sort of homework or because editors think Vietnam moves copy for the historically illiterate like stories about dogs and Britney Spears do for everone else, they don't want to run that stuff. There is of course the larger cultural background radiation of babyboomer obsession with Vietnam as if no obsession with it is unjustified.

I don't know where these guys from
Slate fall into that picture, they seem like smart and decent enough folks. And others can take apart what seems to me just so much statistical legerdemain. But personally, I have just stopped taking seriously any argument which hinges on Vietnam analogies.

I mean even if Iraq was like Vietnam in one sense or another, what exactly does that mean? Are the lessons from Vietnam so clear-cut that given everything else that has changed — technology, the demise of the Soviet Union, military strategy — we must still follow the liberal anti-Vietnam protestor's advice and cut and run? There is no nostalgia more myopic and infuriating than liberal nostalgia.

As we come close to another sad anniversary of the biggest deception of our times ... Ms. Tumulty, care to make at least ONE, sincere, logical, informed and honest comment about this? - h t t p : //video dot google dot com/videoplay?docid=8797525979024486145 ... Why is the MSM so terrified about even discussing this subject?
THE TRUTH & LIES OF 9/11 2 hr 18 min

Bush's speech is here:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/08/20070822-3.html

How people could sit through it is a whole other question, but amidst all the, erm, questionable assertions, Bush drops this whopper:

"Then as now, people argued the real problem was America's presence and that if we would just withdraw, the killing would end."

Big f*cking lie, and fully expecting no-one in the media to call him on it.

Karen,

The question I would like journalists to ask Bush; if the consequences of Vietnam defeat was so damaging why did Bush go out of his way to avoid serving in Vietnam? Why did he get his Daddy to pull strings to place him in the champagne unit of TANG? Why did Cheney use 5 deferments to avoid serving? Wolfowitz? Kristol? Perle? The entire neocon network?

Terrapin: I'm voting for Jamey's greatest snark.

There's some other good/great comment stuff here, too. Shout out to Not the Senator for a 'real history' lesson.

I heard a lot of the VFW [membership demographics changing from WWII/Korean to Nam Vets] speech. He talked much about the 'US bringing democracies through out Asia'. Japan-S. Korea actually got a lot of attention. [I just couldn't do the whole speech]

Did he address the plight of the 'invisible vets' in the VA system or the short fall of extended care in the DoD? Rebuilding the Military? Use of Mercenaries?

The point of the Vietnam analogies is that the lessons that were learned from that debacle were ignored by the current prosecutors of this war. Where do you think the "Powell doctrine" came from? Colin Powell was a young army officer in Vietnam and saw first-hand the problems created from not having defined MILITARY objectives. The first Iraq war was a classic case of the Powell doctrine in action: go in with overwhelming force with a defined military objective, achieve it, then get out.

Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it. Bush doesn't understand history. The neocons knew the history, but ignored it.

Unbelievable nerve for a guy who dodged legitimate service in Vietnam to complain about how we lost that war. Chutzpah doesn't begin to describe it.

But I'm sure the brain-dead old conservatards at the VFW hung on his every word, that is until the apple sauce started getting passed out.

And I notice Karen that you also didn't mention his draft-dodging. What's in it for you guys to protect Bush so much? What are you getting out of it?

We will return to CRAP WHERE'S MY HOT AND SEXY CONGRESSIONAL PAGE after these Praise the Lord suggestions for Turning This Country into One Big Men's Room stall with lots of scary black guys outside come September...

1) Hand out Bibles, adult diapers and KY Jelly before NASCAR races.

2) Blame it on Hillary, that latest successful Democratic Senator of New York.. Whoops, too late!

3) Demand a federal increase in abstinence only sex ed even if it only encourages lots and lots of anal sex amongst teenagers.

4) Set up some prayer pews to pray away all our troubles and hurricanes too.

5) Harness the virtually unlimited air power of Ann Coulter's fat yapper. If that doesn't fly, say something droll about the Breck Girl, to at least keep the TV cameras running.

6) Demand a regime change, somewhere, start a war and then refuse to serve your country...its the conservative way.

7) Call Air Gupta, grab the first hairy guy I see and give him the blow job of his life.

08) Head to West Hollywood for another one of those male only GOP fundraisers only to find out that I'm really at a gay bath house....wait!, theres' not difference! Ok, you might find an actual real man at a gay bathhouse, you'll never find one at a GOP gathering.

9) Attribute it to Global Power Line Kicking.

10) Mandate all motorized butt plugs owned, sanctioned, invented, rented, cleaned, or used by David Vitter or College Republicans to be put in the Smithsonian immediately.

11) Sell all of New Jersey to Maine in exchange for a 'Cats' soundrack, 2 Jack Russell terriers 2 tickets to Kathy Griffin and a 'Queer as Folk' box set.

12) Suspect another Left Wing Conspiracy on CNN, then quietly sell all your blind trust fund shares of KY Jelly.

We will return to CRAP WHERE'S MY HOT AND SEXY CONGRESSIONAL PAGE after these Praise the Lord suggestions for Turning This Country into One Big Men's Room stall with lots of scary black guys outside come September...

1) Hand out Bibles, adult diapers and KY Jelly before NASCAR races.

2) Blame it on Hillary, that latest successful Democratic Senator of New York.. Whoops, too late!

3) Demand a federal increase in abstinence only sex ed even if it only encourages lots and lots of anal sex amongst teenagers.

4) Set up some prayer pews to pray away all our troubles and hurricanes too.

5) Harness the virtually unlimited air power of Ann Coulter's fat yapper. If that doesn't fly, say something droll about the Breck Girl, to at least keep the TV cameras running.

6) Demand a regime change, somewhere, start a war and then refuse to serve your country...its the conservative way.

7) Call Air Gupta, grab the first hairy guy I see and give him the blow job of his life.

08) Head to West Hollywood for another one of those male only GOP fundraisers only to find out that I'm really at a gay bath house....wait!, theres' not difference! Ok, you might find an actual real man at a gay bathhouse, you'll never find one at a GOP gathering.

9) Attribute it to Global Power Line Kicking.

10) Mandate all motorized butt plugs owned, sanctioned, invented, rented, cleaned, or used by David Vitter or College Republicans to be put in the Smithsonian immediately.

11) Sell all of New Jersey to Maine in exchange for a 'Cats' soundrack, 2 Jack Russell terriers 2 tickets to Kathy Griffin and a 'Queer as Folk' box set.

12) Suspect another Left Wing Conspiracy on CNN, then quietly sell all your blind trust fund shares of KY Jelly.

Commenter KS at Talking Points Memo shows how Bush also mangled the history in the Korean analogy that he used:

"I think if people want to make the Korean War analogy, they should do it right. Bush sees the Korean War as a symbol of our commitment to fight aggression and lay the groundwork for development and, eventually, democracy, in South Korea. But we had achieved the liberation of South Korea by October 1950, mere months after the war began. We then made the disastrous decision to push into North Korea in an effort to topple the communist government there. That triggered Chinese intervention, and the war developed into a stalemate that dragged on for three more years. The eventual ceasefire returned things essentially to the status quo ante, an outcome we could have achieved at much lower cost had we not chosen to expand the war.

So, yes, the Korean War analogy is quite apt. Just not in the way Bush means it. The decision to invade Iraq in March 2003 looks a lot like the ultimately futile decision to invade North Korea in October 1950."

I guess Rove really was Bush's brain. He leaves, and within a week W makes the stupidest political comparison he could possibly make.

Thanks for the updates, Karen.

Thanks for pointing out the fact that Bush previously rejected the Vietnam analogy Karen. Given the roll you are on why don't you point out to Ari Fleischer that there is no connection between 9/11 and Iraq too.

"After all these months of rejecting comparisons between Vietnam and Iraq, President Bush now embraces them." ..... That figures. All these months Bush was trying to appeal to the 70% that think Vietnam was a mistake. Now he's trying to hold on to the 30% that think leaving Vietnam was a mistake.

Oh man. A few threads ago people were denouncing Karen for not debunking Bush's speech, and now Jim J continues the trend of child-like feelings of total entitlement. Plus there's that angsty Fight the Power angle of standing tall against the menace of Commandant Tumulty of the dreaded Establishment.

Not the Senator: Good Catch :)

For further information: Chosin Reservoir
Chesty Puller, legendary marine
The Frozen Chosin [Chosin few]

"That does not detract from the need for this action, the goal being a free, fair, and self-determined Iraq ...
--QAQH"

Why do all the NeoCon trolls continue to think of Iraq as we do America, Mexico, or any other country?

The people there don't see it that way. For them, "Iraq" is a colonial construct that is based in absolutely ZERO reality to anyone other than those who colonized the area.

Those who have been there for centuries see themselves as Shia, or Sunni, or Kurdish. That's kind of the big issue there right now, and it stuns me that so many people are too stupid to understand that fact.

" ... that is not another Stalinist shell of an excuse for failed UN diplomacy ... "

Well, I guess it wouldn't be a NeoCon troll comment if it didn't include some reference to Stalin or communism.

"... and Iranian exports of world terror."

Really? Maybe you can tell us all which country has funded the most terrorists:

1. Iran.
2. Iraq.
3. Saudi Arabia

(Hint: It's the one in which the ruling party is best buds with the Bush family.)

Now ... can Time PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, GET A FUQING TROLL RATING SYSTEM?!?!?!?

More Crooked Timber on Glenn Greenwald's arguments on beltway tendencies toward imperialism:

http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/22/democracy-and-unipolarity/

Reminds you of an earlier post about Kristol and Kagan's manifesto for a "neo-Reaganist" foreign policy:

http://crookedtimber.org/2007/08/12/kristol-kagan-and-conservative-foreign-policy/

Evidently, English is Tumulty's second language because she doesn't understand English too well. She claims that Bush made "comparisons" between Vietnam and Iraq. ROTFLMAO!! Sorry, to the language challenged, but Bush made no "comparison" between the current condition in Iraq and the condition of Vietnam during America's fight against the enemy. Saying that surrendering to the enemy in Iraq could bring about similar death and destruction that followed the American left's surrender to the enemy in Vietnam is not making "comparisons" between the current condition in Iraq and the condition during America's fight against the enemy in Vietnam. Also, what does Sergeant Major Joe Biden know about warfare or history?

grape_crush you ask who is Robert Dallek? He is one of the leftists that the Washington press corps routinely turns to when they want to disquise someone with habitually wrong opinions as an "historian".

Mr.XXXXXXXX advised on Saturday 7-28-07 he had been at this location, invited by his sister for a party for the Young Republicans which his sister is a member. Mr. XXXXXXX advised also in attendance was Mr. Glenn Murphy Jr., the President of said organization. Mr. XXXXXXX advised several people in attendance had been drinking alcohol, and had been asked to stay by his sister, to include himself and Mr. Murphy.

Mr. XXXXXXXXX advised he and Mr. Murphy went into a rear bedroom to go to sleep. Mr.XXXXX advised Mr. Murphy got into the top bed and he got into the bottom bed of a set of bunk beds located in said room.

Mr.XXXXXXX advised he suddenly awoke, at about 06:40 AM on 7-29-07, to find Mr. Murphy doing things to his penis, with out his permission. When asked what Mr. Murphy had been doing to his penis, Mr.XXXXX stated, "He was holding my dick with one hand and sucking my dick with his mouth."

www.takingdownwords.com/taking_down_words/files/glennmurphy.pdf

While Bush's bungling in Iraq certainly deserves to be compared with Vietnam, the comparison is not a favorable one. While reading "State of Denial" I thought it sounded familiar and I pulled out my copy of "The Best and the Brightest" and began reading the two books in tandem. The most depressing exercise of my life. The Bushies learned NOTHING from Vietnam. Consider this passage from page 144 comparing Eisenhower's refusal to be drawn into a war over Dienbienphu with Johnson's escalation in 1964:

"Whereas Eisenhower genuinely consulted Congress, Johnson paid lip service to real consultation and manipulated Congress. Eisenhower's Chief of Staff had made a tough-minded, detailed estimate of what the cost of the war would be; eleven years later an all-out effort was made by almost everyone concerned to avoid determining and forecasting what the reality of intervention meant. In 1954 the advice of allies was genuinely sought; in 1965 the United States felt itself so powerfulthat it did not need allies, except as a means of showing more flags and giving moral legitimacy for the U.S. cause. Eisenhower took the projected costs of a land war to his buget people with startling results; Johnson and McNamara would carefully shield accurate troop projections not only from the press and the Congres but from their own bugetary experts."

It doesn't take a lot of imagination to change this paragraph from a description of two crises in Southeast Asia into a comparison of the Persian Gulf War and our current quagmire. Or consider this passage on page 106 about how blind anti-communism after the fall of China would lead to the policies that made Vietnam possible:

"A kind of demonology about a vast part of the political world would become enshrined as accepted gospel. One major political party would be too frightened to challenge it, the other delighted to reap the benefits of it."

This could exactly describe the entire Republican game plan post-9/11 - except instead of communists, we now demonize Muslims. If it weren't so tragic I'd have to laugh - history is repeating itself as a satiric farce. And now Bush wants to invoke THAT history as a reason for him to keep on bungling? To paraphrase Santayana, those too stupid to pay attention to their history will repeat it, only with more stupidity.

Question Hillary it has been pointed out several times that your homosexuality will not be condemned here. But wouldn't you rather hang out with your own kind on say, The Dumbass Republic, where Liberals are not permitted to post?

>After all these months of rejecting comparisons between Vietnam and Iraq

Ms. Tumulty,
Ahem, it has been years.

At the very least, we now know where Bush was during the year he was AWOL from the Alabama Air National Guard -- he was in the Bizarro Universe, a place where the Cambodian killing fields somehow resulted from American withdrawal from Vietnam and not American involvement and destablization of the region.

How many refugees have been created by the Iraq war? Something like 2 million? And the Bush administration has only allowed 10,000 or so to emigrate here?

Takes a lot of nerve to hold up the Vietnamese boat people as an example of what might happen if we leave. It's already worse than that here.

For those wondering, Robert Dallek is a pre-eminent presidential historian.

"Saying that surrendering to the enemy in Iraq could bring about similar death and destruction that followed the American left's surrender to the enemy in Vietnam is not making "comparisons" between the current condition in Iraq and the condition during America's fight against the enemy in Vietnam."

The American left surrendered in Vietnam? Maybe you can tell us who, exactly, was president when the last troops left Saigon (hint: it was NOT Clinton).

"Also, what does Sergeant Major Joe Biden know about warfare or history?"

Um ... and what, pray tell, does Bush know about warfare or history?

Hell, what do YOU know about warfare or history? You've just proven it's not a lot.

And when it came time for Bush to serve he decided he " didn't want to go to Canada or shoot out my eardrum, so i decided to better myself and learn how to fly..." Houston Chronicle Archives.

He made sure he didn't have to go to Vietnam, and then W. tries to use it to justify staying in Iraq. Incredible. McNamara's 'In Retrospect' lists a lot more credible lessons to have learned from Vietnam. And W. and company broke every single one of them when they committed us to the Iraq debacle.

11 Lessons from Vietnam
The eleven lessons in McNamara's 1996 book In Retrospect: The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam:

1.We misjudged then — and we have since — the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries … and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions.

2.We viewed the people and leaders of South Vietnam in terms of our own experience … We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.

3.We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values.

4.Our judgments of friend and foe alike reflected our profound ignorance of the history, culture, and politics of the people in the area, and the personalities and habits of their leaders.

5.We failed then — and have since — to recognize the limitations of modern, high-technology military equipment, forces and doctrine.

6.We failed as well to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.

7.We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement … before we initiated the action.

8.After the action got under way and unanticipated events forced us off our planned course … we did not fully explain what was happening and why we were doing what we did.

9.We did not recognize that neither our people nor our leaders are omniscient. Our judgment of what is in another people's or country's best interest should be put to the test of open discussion in international forums. We do not have the God-given right to shape every nation in our image or as we choose.

10.We did not hold to the principle that U.S. military action … should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces supported fully (and not merely cosmetically) by the international community.

11.We failed to recognize that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems for which there are no immediate solutions … At times, we may have to live with an imperfect, untidy world.

Smart move by Bush. Now conservatives can beat their pigeon chests about a war long past in which they don't have to explain their own lack of commitment and service. Its perfect.

Tom: "..grape_crush you ask who is Robert Dallek?"

Yes..but I asked that to Karen Tumulty, not you.

Maybe you missed that part of the sentence. Are you 'language challenged' much, Tom? Or do you just like to throw stones?

The Vietnam war also gave us words like "chickenhawk," "AWOL" and "TANG-p*ssy."

Perhaps if Bush, Cheney, Kristol and their wealthy Republican friends hadn't spent so much time and effort avoiding service in 'Nam, the outcome would have been different.

At a minimum, we might have avoided the most corrupt and incompetent administration and the slaughter of tens of thousands innocent Iraqis.

Derek, typical libtard. Just because I have sex w/ men, that doesn't make me gay. I'm just like Roy Cohn! Most of the time, my parter is passed out anyway, so I can't be gay.

SUPPORT DOMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Derek, typical libtard. Just because I have sex w/ men, that doesn't make me gay. I'm just like Roy Cohn! Most of the time, my parter is passed out anyway, so I can't be gay."

LOL, that's pretty funny.

In dueling, rousing post-VFW populist boob remarks, liberal myopics Skipper Webb and Hillary Clixon this evening revealed their Secret Plan To Surrender Iraq To Al Queda (revised).

Webb half-truthfully compared Eisenhower's resolve to that of the always winning French foreign policy of the last 100 years, apparently having missed the Annapolis Weekly Reader issues that covered Iran's 444 DAYS of vacation only interrupted by the threat of Reagan nuking Tehran on inauguration day 1981 (not unlike Ike's ability to instill reality into the hearts and minds of the Hollywood Reds infesting North Korea and Truman's China). Then he and Carter - of HABITAT FOR HEZBOLLAH fame - spat on some future Boat People.

Hillary twisted lightly as well (AKA The Usual), weather vane firmly attached to her poll handler's ox cart, and mused again about there being no military solution in Iraq (since none was ever required in Rwanda, or Somalia, or Bosnia, or Haiti apparently).

Memory Sedition Fest 2007 will continue after these words from the Chicago Board of Trade's beef specialist market maker, and your Washington Redskins...

Dateline, North Africa:

"Mutterings of a quagmire from his own party today following severe American losses in initial forays with hardened German units have led some to speculate that charges of impeachment may soon be brought against President Roosevelt.

'Hitler did not bomb us, Japan bombed us, so why are we at war with Germany?' shouted Senator Hart Shanks (D, NY). 'Bring the boys home, now!'

Meanwhile, college campuses in the Midwest and feeling their first taste of live radio feeds to both of the left coasts demanded FDR re-instate Marxist social reforms, as the troops slogged through Tunisia. 'We are wasting billions on this illegal war, caused by a duped Congress and a 3-term dictator hell bent on getting all social services removed for the sake of world freedom. Ludicrous!' exclaimed Ben DeNova of Students For A Detonated Society.

Congress seemed inclined to fence-sit, awaiting the outcome of the next major battle results before deciding which side to join in this escalating political street fight. 'I'd like to think the President knew what he was getting us into after Pearl, but we've been at war for almost 2 minutes and we still haven't reached Europe or Japan to any degree. I'm beginning to think Mr. Roosevelt has been mislead by his advisers, or mislead us deliberately, simply to get public minds off his Depression numbers.'

Asked to comment, White House spokeschick Fawn Doo stated that the 'President has heard these same complaints since before the war was initiated by Japan and Germany, never mind Churchill's missed dire warnings from a full decade earlier, and we think that once the Japanese interment camps in California hit full capacity the tide will begin to swing our way, at least in the Congressional districts where our paid voters have been apt to accept anything as a unionized favor in the past. In the mean time he's off to Canada's beautiful Campobello Island once again to do whatever he do do.'

More on this same network, after this word from Tokyo Rose."

L"So, does Bush think we should have never left Vietnam?"

I take it you didn't arrive in the U.S. by row boat?

Liberal ingrates all.

"...the disaster is the consequence of going in, not getting out..."

The disaster was allowed by not removing Saddam after Gulf I.

If we ditch Iraq now?

We're OVER.

"Those who have been there for centuries see themselves as Shia, or Sunni, or Kurdish."

Ever been to a Notre Dame-Purdue game?

Next!

... We misjudged then — and we have since — the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries … and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions ... NOT SINCE 9-11, JUNIOR.

...We viewed the people and leaders of South Vietnam in terms of our own experience … We totally misjudged the political forces within the country ... SO GOOD GUY JFK HAD DIEM ASSASSINATED. GOOD JOB!

... We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values ... UNLESS A WILL & GRACE MARATHON IS ON WEST OF SACRAMENTO.

... Our judgments of friend and foe alike reflected our profound ignorance of the history, culture, and politics of the people in the area, and the personalities and habits of their leaders ... AGREED, WE NOW ALL KNOW AND CAN AGREE THAT THE FRENCH BASICALLY STILL SUCK.

The liberals have gone totally berserk over Bush's VFW speech today -- which means he must have said something really, really good about the United States and our armed forces.

OH HELL YES.

All this leftist carping about fighting terrorism.

How shrill.

How strident.

How expected.

When you think about it?

Just another Yalta moment, in the long, dark, desperate history of the Blame America 1sters seeking to destroy freedom and those that yearn to be free.

What a legacy.

Useless Conservative Chickenhawk Update # 251 (collect them all):

Trent Lott: "I pin medals of bravery on each and every conservative in this country who showed their love of country and courage by continuing to make '24' the rating success that it is! Also medals of freedom for all those brave conservatives calling in to Rush at this very important time in our nation's history...and oh yeah, support the troops"

Republican strategist JC Watts: "I will surrender Iraq and the greater Middle Class to Iran before we lose a precious single Christian conservative to battle. I want conservative Christians to be exactly where there supposed to be...in a trailer park snorting Oxycontins, drinking moonshine and watching Springer"

Senator Tom Coburn: "I will urge our proud conservatives to fight our enemies the same way the glorious President Bush does...by going to Texas to fight the insurgents there! Then I will thank my black limo driver Rufus for being, well, black and hung like a horse. Me lovee chocolate long time."

Senator Stevens: "I will be attending North Korea's next ICBM launch party, but will surrender Iraq and everything not the Dodgers west of the Mississippi unless someone slips me a briefcase full o cash. Support the troops...by contributing to me."

Senator Inhofe: "Evolution is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm not feeling very well and I need a good blood letting to get better. Where are my leeches?"

Senator David Vitter: "I will surrender my new Bible, my wifes hot leopard print dress, a year's supply of adult diapers and a case of an@l lube, before any of my conservative constituents has to sacrifice anything for this war. Support the troops(so we don't have to)."

WE SHOULD STILL BE IN VIETNAM!!!!!!! WE COULD BE WATCHING IT ON TV RIGHT NOW JUST LIKE WE COURAGEOUS CONSERVATIVES DO TODAY!!!!!!!!

We don't need to fight the Iraq war...we're fighting in the christian organization 'Battle Cry'. WE'RE ROUGH AND TOUGH! WE'RE GOING TO WAR! HEAR US ROAR! ROOOOOOAAAAAARRRRRR! AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGG ROOOOOOAAAAARR! Scared yet?

See how tough and courageous we are? We're rough and tough Republicans. Not convinced? Just come down to our 'Battle Cry' meetings and see how tough and scary we are and then you will be scared.

YOU LIBTARDS CAN'T TOUCH US, WE ARE MEAN! ROAAAAARR!

All this conservative carping about fighting terrorism.

How shrill.

How strident.

How expected.

When you think about it?

Just another Red state suburban moment, in the long, hot summer, desperate history of the patriotic, judgmental, religiously fundamentalist coward Red Staters , seeking to destroy freedom at home while talking, and only talking, about freedom overseas.

What a legacy.

"The disaster was allowed by not removing Saddam after Gulf I.

If we ditch Iraq now?

We're OVER."
-Lies, Damned Lies, and the DNC

And yet you're here and not there...so much for love of country. Too bad, it was a nice country too.

"...Steven Simon of the Washington-based Council on Foreign Relations said Bush "emphasized the violence in the wake of American withdrawal from Vietnam. But this happened because the United States left too late, not too early," he said. "It was the expansion of the war that opened the door to Pol Pot and the genocide of the Khmer Rouge."

...

COMPLETE SPECULATIVE CRAP, FROM ANOTHER ANOTHER LEFTY THUNK TANKERS LOUNGE.

The canard of Cambodia's Killing Fields being an American military relic ranks as one of the great liberal lies in recent poopulist history (right up there with "the USSR would have fallen without Reagan" and "I did not have sex with that woman").

The nearest liberal "alternative" to Cambodia's own internal hell was that available from sweet, peaceful communist North Vietnam (which eventually did intercede, killing more) -- but was that going to be a better keeper if the U.S. had left Vietnam say 3 or 5 years earlier? Based on what, Broward County chad math? Magic 8 Ball? Crystal meth ball? Tet? An Loc? Saigon?

The U.S. had every right to attack the arms runs on the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Cambodia, Laos, North Vietnam -- and had we crossed the DMZ and borders IN FORCE a hell of a lot of people would be ALIVE today, instead of decaying in the Abbie Hoffman Memorial Forest Hill for spastic appeasement victims.

Force works. Maximum force works best, when allowed and applied properly. Ask any Serb or former Yugo you know.

That LBJ didn't use what he had makes Goldwater's legacy all the greater, even if the American people were stupid enough to forget that fact when their concerns for domestic comforts outweighed their broad security interests.

Now we all pay, again, for another Vietnam lesson unlearned.

Nice job, DC leftwits!

What's that? Did QH cite the military action against the Serbs as a success?

“Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is.”
–Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)

“You can support the troops but not the president.”
–Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

“Well, I just think it’s a bad idea. What’s going to happen is they’re going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years.”
–Joe Scarborough (R-FL)

“Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?”
–Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99

“[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation’s armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy.”
–Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)

“If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy.”
–Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W Bush

“I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . I didn’t think we had done enough in the diplomatic area.”
–Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

“I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today”
–Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)

"No goal, no objective, not until we have those things and a compelling case is made, then I say, back out of it, because innocent people are going to die for nothing. That's why I'm against it."

-Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/5/99

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning...I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area."

-Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

"You think Vietnam was bad? Vietnam is nothing next to Kosovo."

-Tony Snow, Fox News 3/24/99

"I'm on the Senate Intelligence Committee, so you can trust me and believe me when I say we're running out of cruise missles. I can't tell you exactly how many we have left, for security reasons, but we're almost out of cruise missles."

-Senator Inhofe (R-OK )

"I don't know that Milosevic will ever raise a white flag"

-Senator Don Nickles (R-OK)

"This is President Clinton's war, and when he falls flat on his face, that's his problem."

-Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN)

"The two powers that have ICBMs that can reach the United States are Russia and China. Here we go in. We're taking on not just Milosevic. We can't just say, 'that little guy, we can whip him.' We have these two other powers that have missiles that can reach us, and we have zero defense thanks to this president."

-Senator James Inhofe (R-OK)

"Once the bombing commenced, I think then Milosevic unleashed his forces, and then that's when the slaughtering and the massive ethnic cleansing really started"

-Senator Don Nickles (R-OK)

"Clinton's bombing campaign has caused all of these problems to explode"

-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

"These international war criminals were led by Gen. Wesley Clark ...who clicked his shiny heels for the commander-in-grief, Bill Clinton."

-Michael Savage

"This has been an unmitigated disaster ... Ask the Chinese embassy. Ask all the people in Belgrade that we've killed. Ask the refugees that we've killed. Ask the people in nursing homes. Ask the people in hospitals."

-Representative Joe Scarborough (R-FL)

"It is a remarkable spectacle to see the Clinton Administration and NATO taking over from the Soviet Union the role of sponsoring "wars of national liberation."

-Representative Helen Chenoweth (R-ID)

Conservatives, especially neoconservatives have a very difficult time coming to terms with their own blunders and miscalculations. They always have. In their world, using power unwisely has not consequences for there is always a boogieman to blame when things go wrong. It's Liberals or the Media or Hippies or fill in the blank. Blessed with this worldview whereby they are never responsible for anything, they continue unabated to push ever more adventurous and ultimately disasterous policies. The real question is, why does anyone listen anymore? Why do we have to hear what Bill Kristol or Charles Krauthammer have to say? Is there no point at which their credibility is so tarnished that news programs and publishers refuse to give them a platform? Apparently not.

QAQH says:

"In dueling, rousing post-VFW populist boob remarks, liberal myopics Skipper Webb and Hillary Clixon this evening revealed their Secret Plan To Surrender Iraq To Al Queda (revised)."

That's just not true. Iraq isn't going to turn into an Al Qaeda/Talaban-like stronghold. It's going to turn into a Shi'ite lead government that is effectively a puppet of the Iranian Mullahs. That's where we're headed. Al Qaeda has become the new Saddam for you guys on the right who cannot admit that mistakes have consequences. Who could have predicted Iran would exploit their tribal ties once the Sunni dominated government of Saddam was removed and replaced with an American occupation force? Anyone who has half a brain and can read a little. But everyone from the President on down refused to consider the negative consequences of invading and occupying Iraq prior to the war. No, it's not Al Qaeda that will be left in charge in Iraq. It's Iran.

To those of you who have posted your tired anti-Bush, anti-American and lets run away comments ... shame on you. Let's try to deal with the reality of today's dangerous world.

Bush did not say all events in Vietnam ran in parallel to our efforts in Iraq. He suggested that walking away and leaving a vacum as we did exiting Vietnam, would likely result in the a blood bath similar to those in both Vietnam and Cambodia.

The liberal democrat strategy of embracing defeat whenever possible and running away when things get tough does a great disservice to our country and the military men and women who protect our freedoms including the liberal's rights to whine and quit.

The islamic fascists that we are fighting wish to destroy America ( all western culture actually)This includes our rights to choose our religion (extremist Islam only please)and all of our other freedoms including posting comments at a site like this.

This means your freedoms too ladies ... your opions don't matter and you should not be seen in public.

Regarding your tired anti Bush snipes...

Remind me... what unit did Bill serve in again? I don't recall.

By the way ... who got us into Vietnam? The beloved womanizer, drug using , mafia connected John F. Kennedy D-Mass.

Who escalated the war ... bringing troop levels to over 500,000 then handcuffed the abilities of our troops by making tactical calls safely from his Washington bunker? Lydon B. Johnson D-Texas.

It is time for our country to grow "a set" again and assume a stance of "Fight one of us ... Fight us all"

God Bless America and God Bless George Bush.