October 24, 2007 2:36
The GOP in 2008
It's long been my belief that the GOP hole card in 2008 is going to be a rancid furriner-bashing anti-illegal-immigrant smear campaign. Make no mistake, whatever lipstick they put on this pig, the bottom line is the same old know-nothing nativism that has been a minor American stain since the Protestants began to get worried about the Irish Catholic surge in the 1840s (among some of our earliest settlers, the only acceptable immigrants were slaves).
I tend to be an extremist on this issue. I am wildly in favor of immigration, legal and illegal. I realize that national security--i.e. terrorism--requires that we secure the borders, and that's a good thing, if almost impossible. But as a New Yorker, I'm deeply grateful to the immigrants, many of them illegal, who saved the city by bringing commerce (and sales tax revenues) to some of the toughest neighborhoods in the 1970s and 1980s. I've found that any Haitian willing to get in a rickety boat and risk all to get here is going to be an aggressive, entrepreneurial hard-working American when he or she arrives. In an unscientific sample, I"ve also found that 98.9% of all Latinos who cross our southern border looking for work are just fabulous, hardworking people.
I find the tendency of some of the Republicans running for President to play to our very worst instincts--and I mean racism, in this case--is just nauseating. A few months ago, I asked Mitt Romney if he thought illegal immigration was a net economic plus or minus. He said...he wasn't sure (but, of course, he knows that it's a net plus).
In any case, I was reminded of all this by Fred Thompson's maiden venture in the realm of policy, as recounted by Ed Kilgore.
In the end, this sort of nativism has been a persistent loser in American political history; I hope it will be again in 2008.
Reader Comments
Posted by Beavis from Montana
October 24, 2007
Dear Mr. Joe Klein:
I never really understood the furor over illegal immigration, either. I'm not sure why it suddenly was manufactured into such a big issue. Nobody seemed to care (even after 9/11.)
And, speaking as a white guy who lives in a place surrounded by pretty much nothing but white guys, I have to say all these Republican white guys in Iowa and New Hampshire complaining about illegal immigrants are laughable. Get a life, what are you so afraid of?
I say Good Day!
Posted by p_lukasiak
October 24, 2007
IN EVERY war, information is a weapon. In a “war against terrorism”, where the adversary wears no uniform and hides among the civilian population, information can matter even more. But does that mean that torture can sometimes be justified to extract information?
The answer in international law is categorical: no. As laid down in treaties such as the Geneva Conventions, the UN Convention against Torture and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the ban on torture or any cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment is absolute, even in times of war. Along with genocide, torture is the only crime that every state must punish, no matter who commits it or where. Defenders of this blanket prohibition offer arguments that range from the moral (torture degrades and corrupts the society that allows it) to the practical (people will say anything under torture so the information they provide is unreliable anyway).
Posted by linda
October 24, 2007
Ron Paul supporters are not Republicans according to RedState.com, so they’re going to limit what Ron Paul supporters can say on the web site. Isn’t speech supposed to be for all people, RedState?
Posted by memekiller
October 24, 2007
I don't know about that.
I don't like him.
I know that.
I am a member of the G.O.P.
Posted by CT Voter
October 24, 2007
Kilgore says:
"But it will also likely bring out the worst in a Republican Party that has begun to see immigration as the new right-wing wedge issue of the twenty-first century."
And the Republican party has successfully used wedge issues to win elections--Mr. Klein, you seem really Pollyannish when you hope that it won't work this time...
PS: How's the thread-fixing going on?
Posted by Oliver Cogswell
October 24, 2007
OK, I'm a Brit. I am not fully up to speed on all of the nuances and the partisan details of American politics, but I can read, and I have a modicum of common sense. It seems to me that there has to be an insidious danger lurking below the surface in such a well developed sense of Bi-Partisan politics that we see in the US today. I do realize that this has been the case for a long time and Americans have gotten by [without?] serious conflict for a couple of generations now.
So what's different today?
Am I the only one who senses that the political rhetoric which appears to dominate every corner of the net where people gather to discuss political issues is steadily increasing in vitriolic language, including threatening insults and an unwillingness to compromise in any fashion?
In Britain and in most of Europe, people who are so uncompromisingly diametrically opposed to each other in political beliefs at least have a third, or even a fourth avenue of expression.
Politics should not be about the 'good' and the 'evil', that type of polarization should be left for specific events. Polarization occurred [in the perceived general knowledge] in the period of Lincolns tenure, and - for public consumption - and led to a terrible civil war. Had there been a workable, publicized alternative to 'Keep' or 'Free' at that time, who knows how history would have played out.
Having absolutely no middle ground only serves to deepen divisions and push the already entrenched polarization into a very dangerous place indeed.
Is it time for a third way in the USA?
Posted by Kitatas
October 24, 2007
It probably isn't time, unfortunately. We're going to be looking at a lot more divisive language going through the 2008 elections, and it will likely take a while for things to cool off after that.
I don't like it myself. I've got more of a front row seat then you do in Britain, and I've seen politics get pretty ugly on a more personal level.
I think it's true that people on Newsvine tend to represent the extreme views even more so then elsewhere, but in away that itself explains the polarization of America. People with moderate views are more likely to be quiet because they are afraid to get into an argument, while the extremists argue happily.
And at some point, people horrified with one atrocity or another begin to sympathize more with one side then another. And that's when the real "polarization" happens. They get angry at the other side, and become unwilling to admit that whoever they perceive as being on their side has made a mistake, and intelligent debate becomes impossible.
Posted by Tom T
October 24, 2007
I think I could work on that one Raat.
It's good to see that I'm not alone in my concern. Sort of vindicates my brain process and lets me know that I'm still on the planet and not up in the stars where I usually go.
Posted by JJ
October 24, 2007
Britney Spears has put her daily routine of shopping, tanning and coffee runs on hold to spend time with her sons at her LA home.
The troubled singer carted Sean Preston, 2, and Jayden James, 1, around her drive way during the afternoon play date, which was held under the watchful eye of a court-appointed monitor.
It's the second time Britney has spent time with her children since her visitation rights were reinstated late last week.
Britney was seen driving to Starbucks with the boys on Saturday in California.
Yesterday her father and mother, James and Lynne, called a meeting with Kevin Federline's lawyer Mark Vincent Kaplan to air their concerns over the custody battle.
And it seems they have good reason to be worried.
Posted by wvng
October 24, 2007
Cate Blanchett gave a regal performance on the red carpet at the premiere of the monarch in Elizabeth: The Golden Age - but the second film about the monarch has been panned by critics.
The statuesque 38-year-old Australian actress, showed off an hour-glass figure in a sequinned off-the-shoulder dress, and is about the only thing in the film critics have been kind to.
Although her portrayal of Elizabeth I has been tipped for awards, the New York Times described the film as "reductive, distorted and deliriously far-fetched".
Critic Manohla Dargis described the plot as a "kitsch extravaganza aquiver with trembling bosoms, booming guns and wild energy".
The Evening Standard's Nick Roddick said Blanchett's "bravura performance" could not make up for "heritage cinema for the North American market, replete with rolling English hills and soaring English cathedrals".
On the red carpet Blanchett's co-star, Rhys Ifans, avoided questions about his relationship with Sienna Miller by arriving alone and refusing to talk to the press.
Elizabeth: The Golden Age is the sequel to Elizabeth, the 1998 Oscar-nominated film which also starring Blanchett.
It explores the relationship between the monarch and adventurer Sir Walter Raleigh, played by Clive Owen.
The film is set in 1585 when Elizabeth I was continuing to face lust for her throne and the lingering threat of family betrayal, having reigned over England for nearly three decades.
Blanchett, looking stunning in Vivienne Westwood months after she shocked onlookers by appearing to be painfully thin at a film event, said the interest in an actress's weight is "banal".
She said of the English monarch that "in an incredibly savage time, she showed remarkable religious tolerance".
"In that particular period it was one of the most stable empires of that time."
Posted by TomT
October 24, 2007
"It's long been my belief that the GOP hole card in 2008 is going to be a rancid furriner-bashing anti-illegal-immigrant smear campaign."
Good for you for calling it like you see it.
Why would you describe your own view as extremist? It's not. When Ted Kennedy and George Bush agree with you on something, I don't see how that can be considered extremist.
Most sane, rational people share you view on immigration.
Posted by Tom
October 24, 2007
Can we stick all of the illegal immigrants convicted of crimes in Joe Klein's closet and send Klein the bill for the "free" health care provided to all illegal immigrants?
Posted by TLB
October 24, 2007
"furriner"? What other regional dialects would Joe Klein feel free at mocking? Please, provide us with a list.
It's good to hear Klein explicitly coming out in support of massive illegal activity. By so doing, he's also a supporter of all it entails and implies: massive government corruption, identity theft, political power inside the U.S. for foreign governments, and so on.
And, of course, there are huge differences between then and now. For instance, 58% of Mexicans think the U.S. southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico. That's not true of past groups. There are many other differences as well.
And, of course, Klein is engaging in a LogicalFallacy: just because some opponents of illegal activity might be racist doesn't mean that opposition to illegal activity is necessarily racist, as much as supporters of illegal activity like Klein would like it to be.
Should Time Magazine continue to employ someone who explicitly states his support for massive illegal activity? Write them and let them know what you think.
P.S. A partial list of recent Joe Klein lies is here: time-blog.com/swampland/2007/10/gop_debate_1.html (do a find for "recap")
Posted by Church Universal and Triumphant
October 24, 2007
TLB:
How do you get internet access in that bunker you've got buried in your backyard?
Posted by TomT
October 24, 2007
"By so doing, he's also a supporter of all it entails and implies: massive government corruption..."
God forbid that should happen. Can you imagine what massive government corruption would be like?
I know, I know, the Bush administration's spotless record makes this a hypothetical question.
Posted by Tim
October 24, 2007
The immigration bill failed because Sen. Tester, Sen. McCaskill and Sen. Webb voted against it.
Posted by jose
October 24, 2007
I don't know why P_Luk didn't jump on you for saying you're pro illegal immigrants. Wouldn't "I would like to see a way to make what those immigrants who are just here to work to become legal" be better and perhaps be a more accurate reflection of your views?
New sub- It seems to me that a lot of posters are out of character this week. Are the trolls getting that much better?
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
""furriner"? What other regional dialects would Joe Klein feel free at mocking? Please, provide us with a list."
-----------
We need to lock you in a closet with some Calvin & Hobbes compilations, and after that, maybe a few seasons of Monty Python. Immediately.
This is a medical emergency - your irrational hate of nothing, is consuming your sense of humor. Or at least your sense of proportion, anyway.
Moving on...
Good post, Joe. Illegal immigration has certainly had some tangible benefits for America, though I would still like to see immigration laws enforced as they stand on the books now.
I don't think trying to collect all 11 million of them up, and sending them back to their country of origin, is a solution to the problem at all, let alone possible.
I also think all of the scaremongering, and questionable crime statistics about illegal immigrants, need to go.
- Scott
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
"Can we stick all of the illegal immigrants convicted of crimes in Joe Klein's closet and send Klein the bill for the "free" health care provided to all illegal immigrants?"
--------------
If they were to sign citizenship papers, would that all of a sudden change your mind on providing some of them with healthcare?
Give me a break. 90% of illegals are hard-working pseudo-Americans, and the idea that all of them are getting free health care, is exaggerated BS.
But hey, let's employ some of your logic:
Hey Tom, can I put the parents of every borderline-poor child who dies from an illness or disease due to lack of access to S-CHIP, in YOUR closet?
- Scott
Posted by JenJen
October 24, 2007
Kudos, Joe. Excellent post! And you're spot-on... furriner-bashing will be The Issue on the GOP side of the aisle come Summer 2008.
Hey... it's easier than talking about Iraq, or the economy, right?
By the way, nice job on Morning Joe today.
Posted by p_lukasiak
October 24, 2007
Joe, while I agree with you about the way the GOP will be using "illegal immigration" to stir up fear and hate --and votes-- I think its just stupid to say that you are in favor of "illegal immigration" at the same time you recognize the need to secure our borders. You can't have both.
More importantly, being in favor of something illegal is just plain dumb. You can be in favor of legalizing something that is currently illegal, but (except in the case of civil disobedience) there is no justification for endorsing illegal activity.
You can be in favor of instant amnesty, and much higher immigration quotas. That's fine. I do agree with it, but its fine.
***************
I have a serious problem with illegal immigration because it not only represents a serious border security issue, but I think it represents a net LOSS socially.
The fact that it represents a net plus economically is deceptive in the extreme. Simply put, this nation has millions of poor, unemployed and underemployed citizens. Illegal immigrants are employed instead, because they will work for sub-minimum wages, employers avoid paying taxes on their wages, and they are willing to work in sub-human conditions, because they can't complain about those conditions to the authorities.
The "net plus" economically that illegal immigrants bring us is at the cost of continued unemployment and underemployment among our citizens -- and lower wages for the working class. (and while the 'net economic plus' includes stuff like cheaper fruits and vegetables, it seldom if ever fully accounts for the true dollar costs of maintaining tens of millions of people on welfare -- or in jails -- who could be productive, tax paying citizens.)
Posted by ivb
October 24, 2007
Heard a comment on Talk of the Nation that Mitt did yet another conflation of Obama and Osama in relation to the latest Osama tape. What is even worse is he started out saying Osama and then corrected it to Obama -- at least that's how I remember hearing it.
Either he is more stupid than we are led to believe (CEO, etc.), or he is sloppy and careless, or this is one of those little drips of water torture in the "anti-illegal-immigrant smear campaign" that will be the GOP campaign.
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
I think unemployment, and underemployment, are the fault of business, and weak labour laws.
Business will use illegal immigrants for cheap labour, and allow them to bring down the average wage in America, so long as it is feasible to do so.
Come down hard on businesses exploiting illegals, and you repair the problem at it's root.
However, I still personally favor giving illegal immigrants a reasonable way to attain citizenship, which should bring the average wage back up.
It won't fix unemployment, sadly, but thats a problem America has to try and cope with - deporting 11 million people who have lived here for years in many cases, is inhumane, and completely impossible.
- Scott
Posted by Paul Dirks
October 24, 2007
The immigration problem could easily be solved if existing laws concerning employment documentation were actually followed and enforced. But then what would the GOP have left to whip up the Hate-R-Us crowd?
Posted by Anonymous
October 24, 2007
Joe Klein, you are an illegal alien loving idiot with emphasis on idiot.
Posted by p_lukasiak
October 24, 2007
Joe, I support you and your stance on this. I on further reflection also favor amnesty for our brothers and sisters coming here south of the border.
Yes to amnesty!
Posted by linda
October 24, 2007
I support the rights of immigrants to come here and think that anyone against immigration are xenophobic racists.
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
Si to the sueno americano!
No to the racism!
No to the xenophobia!
Yes to a Pan American bloc!
Yes to the Amero!
Posted by ivb
October 24, 2007
I for one think Osama and Obama are the same person and applaud Mitt Romney for confirming it.
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
Yeah QH! Reduce their nuanced opinions into simplistic caricatured fluff, to make yourself feel better! You da man!
- Scott
Posted by linda
October 24, 2007
Sorry this is OT and for posting it on multiple threads but I think it important...
Hey, my fellow progressives. I need your help. One of our progressive leaders, Representative Peter Stark (D-CA) has come out and said what I, and I think a lot of us feel about Bush and his illegal war, and the hatemongers on the right are tying to censure him which is not only an attack on the first amendment but also a blatant attempt to once again stifle the truth.
For those of you who did not hear what Rep. stark had to say, this is what it was,
"You don't have money to fund the war or the children, but you are going to spend it to blow up innocent people if we can get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send to Iraq to get their heads blown off for the President's amusement."
Please join me in showing your support for Rep Stark and his continued courageous stand against the neocons. Don't let them silence his voice!
Send your encouragement and support to: http://www.house.gov/stark/
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
I already sent a letter of support to Representative Stark. He is the kind of Congressman I wish they all were and I am proud that he represents me. Thank you linda for spreading the word!
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
Reuben Navarette from San Diego is my personal hero and muse on this subject. I suggest you read him. A lot.
Posted by linda
October 24, 2007
He is awesome! I agree completely. He is the kind of journalist who shows us all how valuable and worthwhile our newest citizens who the racists call illegals are. I make it a point to hire as many as I can when I need quality lawn care to support them and their dreams!
Posted by Proud Liberal Vet
October 24, 2007
Oliver many of us are armed to the teeth and we are waiting for the day the chickenhawks get the nerve to declare war on us. That will be one war they won't be able to hide from.
Posted by CT Voter
October 24, 2007
Joe - just got finished sending a formal letter of complaint to your bosses demanding that you are terminated for you public support of illegal immigration.
Posted by Roving Eye
October 24, 2007
Joe,
I'm a first generation American. I too value immigrants who come to this country to find work and find a better quality of life. They are, as you say, for the most part hard working decent people who pay taxes into the system (weather they are legal or not).
We as Americans like to save money by buying low priced produce and to be able to hire a cheap contractor, landscaper and housekeeper ect., but in the end, we as a country pay a higher price by the simple exploitation of these immigrant groups and (please xenophobes, they are not all Mexicans) by that I mean if they are hurt on the job or their employer mistreats or abuses them they have very little to no recourse. They are not likely to report a crime or go to the police if the have been a victim. In fact most of these folks live in fear that they will be deported at any time. Subsequently these groups become a subclass society where they are mistreated and exploited at will. This has to stop Joe. We as a society should find a way to bring these people out from the shadows so that they have representation instead of blaming them unfairly for all the ills we face in this country.
I do agree with you; The GOP Xenophobia machine is indeed disgraceful.
Posted by CT Voter
October 24, 2007
I meant your.
Posted by Jose from MecHa
October 24, 2007
Gracias gringos estupidos, I mean mis amigos, for supporting 1/5 of my nation and for facilitating la reconquista. We could not do without you, amigos!
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
"Joe - just got finished sending a formal letter of complaint to your bosses demanding that you are terminated for you public support of illegal immigration."
----------------------
And what would he be fired on grounds of, exactly? Voicing an unpopular opinion?
- Scott
Posted by p_lukasiak
October 24, 2007
"It won't fix unemployment, sadly, but thats a problem America has to try and cope with - deporting 11 million people who have lived here for years in many cases, is inhumane, and completely impossible."
I'm all for amnesty provided the immigrant has a full-time job, and his/her employer is willing to pay double back taxes -- and also pay any difference between minimum wage, and what the person was earning. The immigrant would then be eligible for a guest worker visa, and if he remains employed for 5 years, would be eligible to apply for citizenship.
If the alien does not have a full time job, he is deported, but eligible to re-enter if he gets a job offer within 5 years. (this provides an incentive for undocumented aliens to come in even if they don't have a job.)
All undocumented aliens, regardless of employment status, would be required to provide information on everyone who had employed them -- and those employers would be subject to fines, and in extreme cases, jail time.
Posted by p_lukasiak
October 24, 2007
In short, what I want is amnesty and now.
Migration is the right of all humans.
I am more than willing to raise taxes to bring the American dream home to our so called illegal aliens, but I would prefer it if you would call them undocumented because that is less perjorative. Thank you!
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
"I'm all for amnesty provided the immigrant has a full-time job, and his/her employer is willing to pay double back taxes -- and also pay any difference between minimum wage, and what the person was earning. The immigrant would then be eligible for a guest worker visa, and if he remains employed for 5 years, would be eligible to apply for citizenship."
--------------
While I absolutely agree with this in principle, I think things like double back-taxes on businesses etc. would never survive Congress, no matter who the majority is.
Perhaps a more feasible solution might be to have an "amnesty" for both illegal immigrants and business, combined with a stiffened penalty for any future violations. Just as an example.
Both parties are largely "pro-business", even in cases of clear exploitation, which is probably a big part of why no meaningful legislation can get passed on the issue.
- Scott
Posted by Deggjr
October 24, 2007
What Paul Dirks said: "The immigration problem could easily be solved if existing laws concerning employment documentation were actually followed and enforced." with this addition: but how would the small (and not so small) businesses, who overwhelmingly support the GOP, continue to suppress wages?
But in the end, if the GOP wins the election using a wedge issue, then democracy will have spoken once again. We Americans all love democracy when we get the outcome we want. Otherwise we suppress democracy by all means possible.
Posted by p_lukasiak
October 24, 2007
Scottoest - what I mean is that we should demand that anyone making over, say, 150,000 pays much higher income taxes, along with, of course, getting rid of the Bush tax cuts and other deductions like interest on mortgage payments. The rich in this nation have an obligation to help up the rest of us.
Posted by Sue
October 24, 2007
Illegal immigration 2007 = Gay Marriage 2004, 2002. Just another wedge issue for Republicans to play on.
There are legitimate concerns about immigration including environmental worries about expansion of cities, etc... But the "national security" worry seems overblown. Why is it that no one ever points out that of the 12 million illegal aliens, none have been arrested for terrorism? In fact, Bush wanting to keep the borders open points out that the "Global War on Terror" ain't such a big and bad enemy after all. Otherwise they would be making every effort to shut down immigration.
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
"Scottoest - what I mean is that we should demand that anyone making over, say, 150,000 pays much higher income taxes, along with, of course, getting rid of the Bush tax cuts and other deductions like interest on mortgage payments. The rich in this nation have an obligation to help up the rest of us."
---------
Understood and agreed, p_luk. :D
- Scott
Posted by linda
October 24, 2007
jose: :):):)
Joe, the GOP is actually split over this issue. You have the Bushies who are looking for 'cheap, exploitive labor', those who oppose illegal immigration for very valid reasons, and the 'haters'.
This issue is too complex to go with 'every, all' memes. I think that we have rational laws to cover legal immigration. Too bad that they have not been enforced for generations.
I, also, don't think that 'all angry white men' is a fair statement or that all immigrants are hard working is either.
There are real issues that need to be dealt with. Not everyone who opposes uncontrolled or illegal immigration is a 'brown' hater. As for IA, I would say that many [not all angry WHITE guys, either, which sounds a whole lot like an assumptive comment from a Coastie who has never been to IA] have been negatively impacted by the current situation. Hiring and business practices that are exploitive come to mind quickly.
Boy, Joe, I could really go after that 98+% plus comment you made both on your numbers and who you have met. Like how much do you tip or pay for lawn care. Or how far do you live from those neighborhoods. Or better yet, I could give a list of neighborhoods where you could buy a house cheap and deal with the other 1+%. Joe, we really do have a major 'underground' economy that does not need to import labor.
Whether we want to admit it or not this country has limited natural resources and many are already strained. We just need to come to a color blind, religiously neutral solution that is equitable, rationally keeping the good and eliminating the bad trying to insure that immigration is truly enriching.
Posted by Franco
October 24, 2007
The idea that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes and so should not get any government services is easily debunked. Study after study has shown that as a group they pay much more in taxes than what they consume in governments services. That's true even if they work for cash because:
1. People who work for cash are overwhelmingly low wage workers, who would pay little or nothing in income taxes anyway, whether they're legal or illegal, and
2. They actually pay plenty in taxes: sales taxes, property taxes, utility taxes, excise taxes, etc.
Also, almost invariably the value of their labor is greater than what they get paid, and so they provide a net positive to the overall economy.
About the only good idea Bush has ever had (he probably heard it from someone else) is the guest worker program. Let them in legally, and as many as want to come. They mostly take jobs Americans don't want anyway, and making them legal puts them into the income and Social Security tax system. Making them legal also makes it possible to keep track of them, reducing the enormous number of illegals coming in through uncontrolled avenues. Without the horde of illegals crossing the border, it becomes much easier to interdict those few coming in illegally for nefarious purposes (terr'ists, for you 30-percenters).
Posted by Ben
October 24, 2007
The far left and the far right appose illegal immigration, one on nativist and the other on isolationist grounds. They both make poorly constructed economic arguments to hide the fact that, ultimately, they just see themselves as superior to people from other countries. Do not underestimate how much harm both sides will do to themselves and all of us in order to keep what they would consider to be their ‘purity.’
Good post, Joe.
-Ben
PS. Obviously, McCain would have a different message then you foresee in the post. If he were the GOP nominee, a lot would change.
Posted by Judgement
October 24, 2007
Joe Klein,
See this just goes to illustrate not only that you are moron but equally uninformed. You said and I quote:
"I am wildly in favor of immigration, legal and illegal."
This goes to show what the problem of most liberals is which is they have no respect for the law. You have this delusion for some reason that you are intellectually righteous on this topic and that equates to you just skirting the law because you feel that is justified. So ultimately you are in favor of Criminals. So you would rather have criminals migrate to this country as opposed to law abiding foreigners who respect our soverignty. Since you are so ill informed I would like you to reply to your fluff piece with these figures. This is the cost of Ilegal Aliens in this country and it equates to 338 Billion a year. Here is the link and that brings me to my next point.
http://www.congress.org/congressorg/bio/userletter/?id=663&letter_id=1320684581
"I'm deeply grateful to the immigrants, many of them illegal, who saved the city by bringing commerce (and sales tax revenues) to some of the toughest neighborhoods in the 1970s and 1980s.
Are you serious Joe? Tell me you are joking. You said them donating with sales tax and taking over tough neighborhoods? Joe 30% of all inmates in our prisons are illegals you idiot.
However, you didn't mention any of these:
* Uncollected income taxes
* Burden on the judicial system
* Burden on healthcare
* Burden on Education
* Unpaid Social Security
* 17 Billion dollars out of this country while our trade deficit with Mexico is over 45 billion.
Please tell me what arithmetic you are using where these are good figures? Right now we are getting screwed on this transaction and all I see is red ink.
Joe if you truly cared for these people you would not have them come into the kind of circumstances they do. You are perpetuating a slave labor class in this country by supporting Illegal Aliens. No one should have to work in the conditions and for the unequal pay that these people do. The reason they are subjected to these experiences is because the work illegally and are not protected by the law. So tell me again how much you care and admire these people while you perpetuate an illegal system of employment? Don't make me laugh.
You would love to make this about racism wouldn't you. I know, however this is really the Right vs wrong and not right vs left. Correct me where I am wrong. I would love to see you states some facts on this instead of your opinion that Illegals are good for this country.
Posted by TLB
October 24, 2007
Sue: can I suggest more research? Tens of thousands of people from "SpecialInterest" countries have entered the U.S. illegally, and the 911Hijackers were able to get ID with the help of those here illegally and also by taking advantage of loopholes for illegal aliens.
Go read the 911Commission StaffReport, then get back to us when you're somewhat familiar with this issue.
And, a related national security issue is the fact that we have millions of foreign citizens here, and it would be very difficult to deport them if we had to: riots, property damage, and deaths would result.
Yet, all countries should be able to expel people who are in the country illegally.
If you actually think about it (maybe ask friends for help), you'll see that we've lost control of our country: if we had control over our country, we could deport all illegal aliens if we had to.
People like Joe Klein are traitors in all but the strict legal sense.
Posted by ursus
October 24, 2007
"98.9% of all Latinos who cross our southern border looking for work are just fabulous, hardworking people"
My own experience is that it is 99.8%. I think you may have a typo in your piece. ;-) And, if you measure success by the spirited debate that ensues, this post was a whale of a success!
Posted by DSL
October 24, 2007
Obviously with a name like "Klein" you would be in the liberal camp that says Welcome All! We've got plenty of free healthcare, education, and food for people who haven't done a darn thing to earn it except to wrap themselves in their native country's flag and demand "human rights". What a crock. Come out to LA, and come witness what it is like to live in a 3rd world country. Please pull your head out of the sand you ignorant bleeding heart.
Posted by p_lukasiak
October 24, 2007
Shut up DSL you racist, xenophobic pig. Mr. Klein may not be right about much but he is right about this!
Posted by DSL
October 24, 2007
Shut up lukasiak and go stand in line with the rest of your ACLU brethren. Sorry if the truth hurts. Maybe you snuck into the country as well, breaking our laws, illegally purchased the SS# and identity of someone else, and ever since have been living comfortably on the government dole? Why so sensitive? Grow up you ugly, whiny, treehugging crybaby.
Posted by Johnny Guitar
October 24, 2007
Count me as one of the few progressives who supports enforcing immigration law, but for reasons tied to my basic philosophy: that laws and regulations should be equally and dispassionately applied for the betterment of society. If applied, these laws would reveal the full cost of lack of healthcare, lack of basic standards of education (NOT No Child..), lack of living wages, etc. that plague our house-of-cards economy. Somewhere there must be a rational dialogue that avoids the anti-business rants of the left and the racist fears of the right.
Posted by Tom
October 24, 2007
Bin Laden, the Democrat party and MS-13 agree with Joe Klein's "ideas" on immigration. Why are the talking points of the four always identical?
Posted by Off The Hilton Reservation
October 24, 2007
"I tend to be an extremist on this issue. I am wildly in favor of immigration, legal and illegal. I realize that national security--i.e. terrorism--requires that we secure the borders, and that's a good thing, if almost impossible. But as a New Yorker, I'm deeply grateful to the immigrants, many of them illegal, who saved the city by bringing commerce (and sales tax revenues) to some of the toughest neighborhoods in the 1970s and 1980s."
Let me guess.
2 for 1 Wednesdays at the Congressional Club's cash bar?
Posted by Bows & Flows of Leftist Crap
October 24, 2007
Klein this Ellis Island was a hindrance to freedom?
Yup, certified loontard.
Next!
Posted by Joe Klein's 12-Step Peace Plan
October 24, 2007
"...the Protestants began to get worried about the Irish Catholic surge in the 1840s..."
Judging by the Irish race and draft RIOTS in your beloved Manhattan (and South Boston), the Protestants may well have been right!
Stick with fiction.
Stay away from actual history.
Posted by Anonymous Then, Still Anonymous
October 24, 2007
Even scarier than Klein's xenophobia and sheer paranoid hatred of the GOP?
A major American shareholder venture pays him to write this crap.
Unfreakingbelievable.
Posted by Blue State Hate IS indeed an ugly thing
October 24, 2007
Well, so much for that kinder, gentler DNC media shill brigade in NYC and DC.
Posted by Senator Shiksa has spoken
October 24, 2007
"I tend to be an extremist on this issue."
Don't sell yourself shorty.
You IS an extremist on EVERY issue.
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
"Joe 30% of all inmates in our prisons are illegals you idiot"
I obviously don't have the time, nor do I care enough, to respond to every single thing you said, but here is a quickie, proving that you can say just about anything with statistics:
I went to the link you used as a source for that statement, which was a site for a Republican congressman. I then went to the link HE used, which took me to a transcript for Lou Dobbs' show (getting questionable already).
Here is the actual statement on the show:
"At the same time, America's criminal justice system is bulging with these citizens of other countries. According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 30 percent of federal prisoners are not U.S. citizens. At a cost of $63 a day, taxpayers spend more than $3 million every day to house non-U.S. citizen dollars in our federal prisons. Most are thought to be illegal aliens."
FEDERAL prisoners, of whom "most" are "thought to be" illegal immigrants. Sounds like some sound statistical data to me.
I then took a look at the website sourced for most of the other stats he presented, and found they came from an organization called "Center for Immigration Studies" (their site is apparently down, so I couldn't corroborate the other data).
So instead, I Googled the site, and found this description of who they are:
"Pro-immigrant, low-immigration think-tank which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted."
Ignoring the glowing description of being "pro=immigrant" that they gave themselves, they have an active agenda of reducing all immigration to the United States.
Nobody denies that illegal immigrants costs this country money. But it doesn't make deporting them, or uprooting families who have been here for years, any less inhumane and impossible.
Heres a question: How much money do you think it would cost to fund government agencies to try and root out 12 million undocumented people in this country?
Deport the criminals, and fraud artists. Give the hard-working majority a way to citizenship. Encouraging them to continue to hide from the government does nothing for our national security, nor does it solve the problem.
- Scott
Posted by p_lukasiak
October 24, 2007
ah, gotta love it when the trolls carry on conversations with themselves... BTAIM
**************
Sue wrote...
"There are legitimate concerns about immigration including environmental worries about expansion of cities, etc... But the "national security" worry seems overblown. Why is it that no one ever points out that of the 12 million illegal aliens, none have been arrested for terrorism? "
First off, Sue, the "environmental" issue is nonsense. The vast majority of undocumented aliens live in pre-existing housing -- much of it substandard. Every major city has considerable housing stock (or empty lots where hoses have been torn down).... nobody is moving to the suburbs because aliens are filling our cities.
As for "none have been arrested for terrorism", IIRC, at least some of the 9/11 terrrists -- including Atta, were here on expired visas (i.e. illegally). And border security is important...what matters is that as long as our borders are porous, terrorists can enter the country with relative ease.
(For instance, if I was Iran, given how insane Bushco is, I'd have been infiltrating people into this country as sleepers --- ready to retaliate should the US attack Iran, and the 'signal' sent to attack. There isn't a whole of to stop Iran from doing something like that right now.)
Posted by GOD BLESS BLACKWATER FOREVER
October 24, 2007
Joe's right, again.
We should turn that ugly shrine at Ellis Island into illegal immigrant barracks, to train Tito properly for the impending invasion of Canada.
We can melt down the Statue of Liberty for bullets and bed pans, string some razor wire around Wall Street, and just be damn sure we keep the business man down, long enough to free those similarly self-loathing French in Gaybec.
Allah bless us Kate & Allie!
Posted by I just triangulated an alley cat
October 24, 2007
Joe skipped math class the day they discussed the income tax.
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
"Maybe you snuck into the country as well, breaking our laws, illegally purchased the SS# and identity of someone else, and ever since have been living comfortably on the government dole? Why so sensitive? Grow up you ugly, whiny, treehugging crybaby"
--------------
First of all, that p_lukasiak post was not him, it was a Republican troll pretending to be him.
Secondly, telling someone you've never seen or met to grow up, and then calling him "ugly" and "treehugging" in the same breath is hilarious.
Thirdly, your characterization that illegal immigrants are a group of people living comfortably on the government dole, is completely ridiculous.
I think a lot of things when I think of illegal immigrants, but "living comfortably" is not one of them.
You do win a prize for the most inane things ever said in one paragraph, though.
- Scott
Posted by Give the dike her dog back
October 24, 2007
"Deport the criminals, and fraud artists."
Leaving NOLA, Oakland, and Detroit with a combined population of 3.
Posted by Nobel Pizza Putz
October 24, 2007
Ask any IRS clerk -- try IMF Adjustments at your local District office -- what they think of illegals and their bogus tax paperwork.
[Hope and pray they never file with YOUR tax ID number, Scooter.]
Then ask them how that reconciles with Social Security, Medicaid, S-CHIP, education funding, and the census.
Then ask yourself how you ever voted democrap in the first place.
Posted by Nobel Pizza Putz
October 24, 2007
Scooter needs to have a chat with his local NTEU steward, before waxing wise on tax policy issues with which he has absolutely no basic knowledge, and most particularly in light of his almost complete lack of common sense.
Posted by California Burns, Pelosi Visits Wisconsin
October 24, 2007
"Joe - just got finished sending a formal letter of complaint to your bosses demanding that you are terminated for you public support of illegal immigration."
Good idea.
Hopefully Julio will read the letter.
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
"Ask any IRS clerk -- try IMF Adjustments at your local District office -- what they think of illegals and their bogus tax paperwork.
[Hope and pray they never file with YOUR tax ID number, Scooter.]
Then ask them how that reconciles with Social Security, Medicaid, S-CHIP, education funding, and the census.
Then ask yourself how you ever voted democrap in the first place."
------
Then ask yourself how supporting a policy that continues to force them to file under false identities solves the problem.
The thing about giving hard-working illegal immigrants citizenship, is that it allows them to start paying taxes, and legitimately use social services.
Unless you're going to assert now, that the vast majority of illegal immigrants came to America to commit tax evasion and ID fraud, and not to work.
- Scott
Posted by TLB
October 24, 2007
Scottoest wants to know what it "would cost to fund government agencies to try and root out 12 million undocumented people in this country?"
Scottoest has just become the 10000th illegal immigration supporter to issue that FalseChoice.
Fred Thompson is even making it part of his campaign:
fred08.com/virtual/Immigration.aspx
If someone's offered that false choice, they've shown that either they can't think this through, or they think you can't think it through. Either way, they shouldn't be trusted.
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
"Scooter needs to have a chat with his local NTEU steward, before waxing wise on tax policy issues with which he has absolutely no basic knowledge, and most particularly in light of his almost complete lack of common sense."
-------
Is it common sense to think that it's within the realm of possibility to DEPORT 12 MILLION PEOPLE AS A MATTER OF OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT POLICY?
- Scott
Posted by Anonymous Then, Still Anonymous
October 24, 2007
Your read it here, folks.
Time Inc.'s lead man for surrendering the oil fields and Israel to the mullahs has just endorsed illegal immigration as good U.S. policy.
Genius I say!
Posted by TLB
October 24, 2007
Scottoest: illegal aliens won't file under false identities if they aren't here in the first place. That's the goal: reduce those here now, prevent more from coming. Giveaways of any kind lead to the opposite effect.
So, we enforce the law now, and we keep doing that. Then, fewer illegal aliens are here. And, that means fewer will file under false identities.
Posted by Battle of the Media Meatheads
October 24, 2007
"October 24, 2007"
A day that will live in sophistry.
Mark that one on your calendars, mediaphile Americans.
Posted by I just triangulated an alley cat
October 24, 2007
"Then ask yourself how supporting a policy that continues to force them to file under false identities solves the problem."
National Sales Tax, and chuck the income tax?
Works for me!
Posted by GOD BLESS BLACKWATER FOREVER
October 24, 2007
Mickexam has made the case for a national sales tax, and all by himself.
Now THAT is the essence of personal responsibility.
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
"illegal aliens won't file under false identities if they aren't here in the first place. That's the goal: reduce those here now, prevent more from coming. Giveaways of any kind lead to the opposite effect.
So, we enforce the law now, and we keep doing that. Then, fewer illegal aliens are here. And, that means fewer will file under false identities."
And given the sorry state of border patrol, and the lack of success the government has had in searching for illegals so far, you have two options:
1) Exponential increases in funding for border patrol, and federal agencies like the FBI and CIA, so they can hire all of the people necessary to track down 12 million undocumented people.
or
2)??
Non-enforcement of the law is how this problem came to be in the first place. You're essentially calling me out on presenting a "false choice", when your idea of the real choice, is to click your heels three times and expect federal agencies to retroactively enforce immigration laws that haven't been rigidly enforced for years (if ever), on 12 MILLION PEOPLE, with the same staff levels and funding.
As I said earlier, I actually support increased enforcement of existing immigration laws, and toughening penalties on business for employing illegals.
I don't support your version of reality - that it's somehow possible to find and deport 12 million people, and that encouraging them to continue hiding does anything for national security, or in any other way fixes the problem.
- Scott
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
"National Sales Tax, and chuck the income tax?
Works for me!"
-----------
Fair enough, but that is a separate issue from this.
- Scott
Posted by All We Are Saying, Give Penis A Chance
October 24, 2007
When a tax return hits the regional IRS service center in April with a bogus SSN, an asterisk is added to the return, and it goes into a (very slow) No Match verification process.
If you are the unlucky LEGAL taxpayer that had their SSN faked on one of these filings, YOU are in deep doo -- no fault of your own.
And that gets linked to Social Security, and every other major mandate in the majority chuck of federal entitlement spending files.
And you thought all those illegal Vote For Hillary aliens were harmless.
Posted by Joe Klein's 12-Step Peace Plan
October 24, 2007
"Fair enough, but that is a separate issue from this."
NO IT AIN'T, SLOPPY JOE.
Posted by Judgement
October 24, 2007
Scott,
Since you brought it to my attention that the site the information was based on was down I will look for another one to corroborate that data on illegals in our prisons.
I understand the sentiment for not wanting to uproot families. I also understand how frustrating it is for millions of legal citizens who took the time, effort, and money to enter this country legally and become citizens in this great country of ours. It is not fair to those people either. There is no easy answer however, we cannot continue at this rate to just stand idly by and pretend the issue doesn't exhist.
Amnesty didn't change the course of this problem in 86 when Regan let 2 million illegal aliens get a free pass into this country. Now twenty years later we find ourselves in a much more desperate situation of what to do with 13 -20 million. Which based on the last amnesty bill would also enable them to immediately have relatives come over for status too. Now you are looking at 40 million, so how far are we extending this charity?
If I have to choose between what I think is right for families who broke the law and should not be here or the health and prosperity of this nation, I choose this nation.
I don't have anything against these people except the fact they broke the law and to me that is black and white. When I break the law in this country I suffer the consequences, and I expect to different for Illegal Aliens.
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
"And you thought all those illegal Vote For Hillary aliens were harmless."
----------------
Why even bother typing out tripe like this? No one in the comments, and least of all me, has said that all illegal immigrants are harmless.
As I said before, deport the illegals who are criminals. Encourage the others to become proper contributing members to our society.
And then from here on out, properly fund agencies, and enforce immigration laws.
- Scott
Posted by Judgement
October 24, 2007
and I expect no different for Illegal Aliens.
That is how that should read.
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
"It is not fair to those people either. There is no easy answer however, we cannot continue at this rate to just stand idly by and pretend the issue doesn't exhist."
You're absolutely right, but it also is no longer PRACTICAL to let the concept of "entitlement" and "fairness" prevent a solution to the problem.
I don't support indefinite amnesty, which goes to the next quote:
"Amnesty didn't change the course of this problem in 86 when Regan let 2 million illegal aliens get a free pass into this country."
You're right, because he let them in, and then did nothing afterwards to rectify the problem in the future. I don't support just letting anyone who can hop the fence stay here, from now until the end of time. I support increased border patrol, as well as stricter enforcement of immigration laws.
But it isn't practical to try and deport 12 million people who are already here. That, I guess, is where you and I differ.
- Scott
Posted by Robin Hoodwanker
October 24, 2007
We have nothing in place now that would stop the flow of illegal immigration.
After the failure of the McCain-Kennedy plan (which was frankly better than what we have now, which is ZIPPO), our slacker geniuses in Congress have helped to INCREASE the attempts at crossing the river. Bush should make this our #1 domestic priority, and STICK WITH IT until the fence goes up from Pacific to the Gulf.
States and counties are finally taking this matter into their own jurisdiction, as the pussycats in Congress have failed to ACT where action is certainly required.
You libs think this is just a GOP stain?
When your Chicago beloved Granmaw's SSI check gets put On Hold by the local Dem congressman's make-work IRS service center, until her tax returns are cleared up due to bogus use of her SSN by some wetback in Chula Vista, send your complaints to Howard Dean and Barbabra Boxer -- not to the RNC.
Posted by Kit Stolz
October 24, 2007
Glad to hear your sanity on this. As a New Yorker, you owe it to yourself to check out Steve Earle's recent "City of Immigrants," which makes the same point, but more melodically.
On this side of the country, it's long been my belief that the only sane people in Hollywood (the city, not the industry) are the immigrants.
Posted by Bows & Flows of Leftist Crap
October 24, 2007
"As I said before, deport the illegals who are criminals. Encourage the others to become proper contributing members to our society."
Klein, and to a lesser extent you Scooter, automatically assumes the illegals issue is race based -- when of course that is simply lefty race baiting on your part.
This is primarily an ECONOMIC issue, where our tax base is being skewed to the extreme detriment of those that FOLLOW THE LAW.
My grandmother and her brothers went through Ellis Island, legally, long ago. There was no guarantee when they got on the boat in Old Europe that their teeth and knees would pass muster when they hit the States -- but they took that chance, selling everything they had, saying goodbye forever to their towns and elders, for the opportunity (not guarantee) of American life.
All that I would ask, on her behalf and the vast majority of Americans that come from far away to join our most successful experiment in self-government and self-realization, is that they OBEY THE LAW.
Can you fathom that?
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
Since the rest of your post doesn't actually refute anything I said, I will focus on this:
"Klein, and to a lesser extent you Scooter, automatically assumes the illegals issue is race based -- when of course that is simply lefty race baiting on your part."
Joe made some statements to that effect, yes. However, I haven't said a single thing in this entire discussion, that has anything to do with race.
There are lots and lots of valid concerns when it comes to illegal immigration. I would be ignorant if I said that anyone who doesn't agree with my point of view is just a racist.
- Scott
Posted by I just triangulated an alley cat
October 24, 2007
In liberals would simply pay back their overdue college loans, and aliens enter the tax base legally, we might indeed be able to afford the necessary invasions of Iran and Pakistan after all.
Posted by The Vagina Monolith
October 24, 2007
I don't agree with much of what you post Scooter, but I will send Nancy Pelosi's grandchildren to Iran to protect your right to say it in 2011 when President Hillary calls for it, without regret.
Posted by Ian
October 24, 2007
Oh, you're sooo big-hearted, Mr. Klein - especially to non-Americans. Thanks to continued big-spending, liberal Democrat (and RINO GOP) tax policies that have ravaged our economy ( http://snipurl.com/meltdowninprogress ), more and more of us "natives" may face hardscrabble lives sufficient to draw your (worthless) compassion.
Posted by p_lukasiak
October 24, 2007
"There are lots and lots of valid concerns when it comes to illegal immigration. I would be ignorant if I said that anyone who doesn't agree with my point of view is just a racist."
that's true Scott. But you'd be an idiot to think that the vast majority of the people so upset by illegal immigration aren't racists.
Like when someone says something like this... "This is primarily an ECONOMIC issue, where our tax base is being skewed to the extreme detriment of those that FOLLOW THE LAW" you can pretty much tell that they are a racist, because the statement is incoherent....and, as all reliable studies have shown, undocumented aliens are actually a net plus for the economy -- and a net plus for the economy is a net plus for tax revenues.
Posted by Matt Coopers
October 24, 2007
Joe,
You are still a leftist hack. You hate this country and these "knuckle draggers in flyover country" then get the hell out you leftist, Eurofriendly scum.
Posted by TLB
October 24, 2007
In response to part of the endless blather from Scottoest above, the way to ensure that our laws are enforced is actually quite simple to state: we simply discredit those - like Joe Klein - who support illegal activity. That includes those politicians who try to subvert our laws. For instance, John McCain admits that his support for illegal activity has hurt his chances. We simply help others see that.
Those who profit from illegal activity - major banks, the FederalReserve, crooked companies, foreign governments - need agents to do their bidding, including paid agents in politics and the media, as well as useful idiots.
If would-be agents for those interests know that supporting illegal activity is career suicide, the very least that will happen is an impasse.
Posted by Luisa
October 24, 2007
Does Klein own a sweatshop or something? Except for illegal immigrant exploiters/profiteers, even the most radical open borders advocates don't 'wildly support illegal immigration'--they want to make everyone, or at least 'their people', legal. Joe favors the inherently corrupt policy of having immigration law but not enforcing it? That's simply idiotic.
Joe is another one of these self-proclaimed anti-racists who hypocritically use (white) racial put-downs themselves. Aside from race baiting, these types like to imply that all people for rule of law are low class heathens. Their tone is condescending, elitist, and sickeningly arrogant. Sneeringly above lowly flag waving Joe Sixpacks, this Joe Cosmopolitan probably lives in Connecticut or a 'Gossip Girl' neighborhood. He's obviously out of touch with reality so I propose a 'learning vacation'--come to Cudahy, Quebecifornia and spend a day there. He's probably never even heard of that town, let alone aware of the lawlessness which has taken root there due to the corruption of open borders.
Posted by I Hate Republicans
October 24, 2007
All Republicans are racist traitors.
Posted by Scottoest
October 24, 2007
"In response to part of the endless blather from Scottoest above, the way to ensure th